LMFAO, Now its 150k.
I have never played the 10/20nl game but Im guessing nobody is tipping $25 in that game, I could be wrong. Maybe the occasional rich tourist.

How long has it been since you have been there?
dealers do not get $5 tips anymore, very occasionally.

Several dealers recently left the THR after the casino quit offering them benefits. Somehow I doubt that someone making 100-150k for 25 hours work/week would not be willing to pay the benefits themselves.

There is also a huge difference between the best and worst dealers in hands/down. And of course, 10% of their tips is taken off the top for the brushes/cashier people.

I'm not saying that the better dealers don't make good money, but to say that most of them make over 100k is just way off.

The casino dealers make more than the poker dealers (flame if you wish) and 2 of my friends down there made a little over $80k their best year [@THR].

If the economy hadn't crashed so hard, they might have been on track to make that kind of money.

Even in Vegas, at the Wynn or Bellagio, nowadays they're making around $60-70k (the poker dealers -- just my guess).

* My ex gf made $78k last year (about the same this year, but down from past years). She deals baccarat at Bellagio.

Havn't played there since march. The info about the income was from a few years back and I imagine that when the economy was better they got more. I was saying it looks like 150k if you casually track it (but then usually you are not accounting for smaller games and sparse tables and stuff like that.

I can admit when I am wrong. Maybe its not still 100K and maybe that was a slight exaggeration (although I heard it from two different dealers who wanted into HR) but whenever I got bored and started to track it I was like dayum.

Last time I checked there was no 10-20 in HR ever unless you count the straddle. I played the 10-20 at silks and saw the most minimal tipping ever lol and those dealers are the best around.

I think we can all agree that dealers should make a fair wage, but when you start talking over 40k you are really pushing it and taking too much money away from the game.

I just started playing live again and am trying to settle on a tipping strategy that makes sense to me. I think tipping for every hand you win is a bit excessive and can end up taking a lot of money out of your stack. I also think tipping for stand hands that you take down preflop or on the flop with a cbet is too much. Right now I tip a buck for roughly every other pot I win that sees a turn or is a big pot I won on the flop. I kind of want to start keeping a tally of how much I'm tipping to see what the true cost is to me. I've also considered not tipping out of my stack and tipping the dealers with cash/chips after my session since I play in a small room with only a couple of dealers who I'm familiar with.

Your tipping choices are your own, you can tip however you please. Your thoughts on not tipping on tiny preflop pots, or pots that end on the flop with no money in the pot, are reasonable and dealers generally do expect tips in these situations.

Is that a misprint? I know they would like a tip every hand no matter but you think they expect a tip on a blind take down or other tiny pot?

Good catch. I meant they don't expect tips in tiny pot scenarios. Sorry for typo.

If you go to a bar and order a beer or two, and the check is under 10$, do you NOT tip the bartender? If you DO, please explain the difference. Because if you heard someone say, "If my dinner check is under 30$ I don't tip on it", you would think it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, but you think at a poker table its right for some reason.



See here's what I think goes on. You got all these grinders who don't want to tip well because it hurts THEY'RE winrate. Thats the bottom line. If you guys just came out and said "I dont like to tip well because I want the money for myself, and I don't feel morally bad about stiffing and undertipping." I would have to respect that. Because at least you're being honost with yourself and you're thinking is concise. But instead, you guys do these mental gymnastics to avoid facing the fact that you're greedy. You make all these lame justifications for it "oh they're job is easy" "oh they make more $ then mcdonalds employees. That's not the way it should be" Face the fact, you didn't tip 1$ on a $800 pot because you're concerned about equal rights in the labor industries. You do it because you're greedy. Own up to it.


Now obviously I am a dealer. Obviously I'm biased. But I've also been a Pro and am still a semi-pro. So Ive been on both sides of the line. I'm not gonna give you a right/wrong morality trip, But let me talk to you guys in dollars and cents.

First of all, Dealers DO NOT make 100k+ a year. Not even close. I'm not saying no dealer in the world makes that but if they do, they're the best dealers in the house at the best casino's in the world. 50k is probably closer to average. Let me explain to you guys why it behooves you for dealers to make decent money.

Right off the bat, a direct effect is this: If I'm dealing at a table and I'm gettin 1$ every fourth hand. My dealing is gonna be, how do I say this?, a bit paced. But if I get to a table and the tips are good and the red birds are flying, watch me speed up. I start moving like a god dam humming bird. Not alot of dealers will admit this but its just the reality. The quicker I go, the more hands/hour=more hands=more oppurtunity to take that fish's money= a better winrate for YOU.

See the pro and the fish have a symbiotic relationship. Same thing with the Casino in general. Alot of people complain about the rake, and the jackpot, and this and that. But you gotta take a step back, and look at the bigger picture. Think about the service they're providing you. As a pro, it's SO easy for you. All you have to do is wake up, have your breakfast, and then drive over to a beautiful air-conditioned building where the fish are just waiting for you to come take they're $. They're running commercials nightly to draw these fish in for you. They are your marketing department for your poker business. Try getting that rich fish, whos dripping in gold, to come play you in your living room. They are also your security. They have a room full of guys watching survailance cameras whose sole job it is to protect YOUR $. Try living a life like the young doyle brunson, driving 100s of miles to find a game, and then having to worry about getting robbed, cheated, or shot. At a casino they have a whole staff of brutes in blue blazers who's job it is to protect YOU. They'll even walk you to your car on request. When you pay the rake/tips, you gotta realize what you're getting in return.



This is absolutely ridiculous.

Try to deal a hand with 4 allins: 1 for $17(3 reds, 2 whites), 1 for 31(1 green, 1 red, 1 white), 1 for $75(3 greens), and 1 for $115(1 black,3 red ) and see if you can do it "just matching stacks" without using math.

Try to count down a bank of $1200 in various chips and various stack sizes and cash bills in 20 seconds while you've got 10 impatient pokerplayers waiting to get to the next hand

Try dealing 2/4 limit holdem with an allins on every street and know exactly how much rake and jackpot money to take from each individual pot

Try dealing 1/3 PLO

The point is not that it's the hardest math in the world. obviously its not. Its strings of multiplication, addition and subtraction. The point is that you have to do it all in your head, quickly, efficiently, and you have to get it right EVERY TIME.

Dealing poker efficiently takes alot of skill. Not everyone can do it, despite what everyone whos ever sat at a poker table thinks. Not only math, but technique, speed, temperment, and social skills. When I went to dealer school, In that room, the cold hard truth was, probably 75% of the class simply would never be able to deal poker properly.Would never pass an audition. and could never hold a dealer job. Alot of the people on this forum are generally pretty sharp people, but you gotta think about the general population. There were plenty of people who no matter how much they practiced, could not calculate side pots quickly and efficiently, could not look down at 5 different omaha hi/lo hands and decifer what the hi's and lows of each hands were, and did not have the type of personality that could take control of a rowdy poker game.

You guys seem to think that if you only had to tip enough for dealers to make minimum wage it would be a good thing for you. It would NOT.

Someone posted something earlier about how you dont want you're poker dealer to be a kid who's doing this as a summer jobfor beer money, until school semester starts back up. This is SO right no. You WANT your poker dealer to be a career dealer. You WANT there to be a high demand for the job. That way 400 people audition and they filter it down to the 8 or so best of the bunch. If you guys think some WORKING dealers are bad. You don't even wanna know about the other 100 that auditioned and DIDN't get the job. And what a god damned nightmare it would be if THEY were running your game. If Dealing poker were a minimum wage job, I dont think you guys understand how bad it would be. Because all the sharp, proffesional dealers that you see now, would quit and get other jobs.

If that's what you want, then good luck to you. And when every other side pot is wrong, and it's your money being shipped to someone else mistakenly, and you got two russian guys colluding against you in they're native tongue and the dealer doesn't do anything about it because they're lazy and dont want to get into a confrontation, and you're getting about 7 hands an hour in, you might reconsider.

Bottom line: You don't want the fry girl from McDonalds running your poker game. Not when it's YOUR thousands of dollars they're handling.

That's not a good analogy imo. If I go to a bar that has $1 beer specials I'm not going to tip $1 everytime I go to the bar and get a beer. If I'm not paying cash and have a tab I'll probably tip about 20% at the end of the night regardless of what the bill is, in fact I'm more likely to tip a slightly higher percentage the less expensive the bill is but anyway.

I have a non-poker job and get paid mostly through tips so I definitely appreciate people that make their living off of tips. I've found that since I've had that job I've become a more generous tipper than I was before.

So it's not about protecting my winrate or being a nit, I accept that tipping is part of the game that needs to be factored in when accounting for the costs of live play. I also know that I need to be responsible with my bankroll. So for me at least, it's about finding that balance between tipping an appropriate amount for the service the dealer is providing and not giving away 30% of my stack/night in tips.

Very much enjoyed the rest of your post. Very good points.

Perfect post. I made similar comments myself in other threads on the subject. People go into these rants about being "morally against the tipping model" or "wanting to ensure that dealers are dsoing their job properly" or not understanding societal tipping standards, or saying stuff like "if you don't tip at XYZ, why would you at a poker table since the dealer is just doing their job".

It's all cover. People simply don't want to give their money to someone else. Thread would be a lot simpler if people would be adults and just say this. Some people to their credit have done so, but we're getting a ton of silly "tipping model is unethical" BS posts as if these people actually sit around the table analyzing the tipping model when they win pots.

This is not entirely accurate.

First off, there have been claims in this thread which claim tipping insures getting better service. So as a rebuttal to these claims it's relevant to bring up the cons of the tipping model in general and any supporting evidence that it may not insure good service or that other models of compensation exist which would better acheicve that goal.

Second, tipping in poker is inherently different as opposed to other service providers in that you don't pay for the service directly after the service is provided.

In a restaurat you pay for the meal in the end and can then settle the tip for the whole meal

In a bar you pay the tip when you settle the tab

You tip the cab driver after you pay the fare (when you've reached your destination to your satisfaction)

You tip the guy at the car wash after he finishes wiping the car

Point is, where tipping exists you normally tip after the service is provided and you settle the final bill.

In poker you are suppose to tip after each pot won. This is "mid service" if you will. Would you tip the waiter mid way through the meal? First a few bucks after the drinks are served, a few more after the main course, a bit after the dessert and another buck for bringing the bill? This causes a problem with the "Tipping model" because:

1. Service isn't completed
2. Due to the nature of the game the tips end up being paid by those players who win more. You don't really know the "final score" until the guy get up and leaves. In addition, the extent of the tipping can (same as rake) affect the game since it removes money off the table.

So not everyone who has issues with tipping at poker tables would have an issue with the tipping model in principal. Notice how there is no heated discussion about tipping the waitresses for bringing you food/drinks to the table.

Personally, I think having the casios pay the dealers full wage (via increased rake obviously) and taking responsibility for comepnsating the better ones is a better model. Good dealers should be well compensated and motivated to deal well regardless of how stingy the table happens to be, and the more mediocre ones should earn less even if they happen to fall on a big donator at the table who feels overly generous. Let the casino (i.e. service provider) take responsibility for tracking customer statisfaction and compensating it's employees who do a better job.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

The waitresses also get tipped "mid-service". She brings me a water, I give her a tip. She brings me a beer. I give her a tip. She brings me a sandwich an hour later, and then I tip her immediately on that. What poker room do you play in where you can run a tab???

Again, I dont really believe that your guys's issue is WHEN you tip. It's how much. And I absolutely believe the reason why you guys spend so much time and energy figuring out how much you tip poker dealers, and trying to figure out how you can cut down on it is because when you're at a poker table you're in 'make money' mode, whereas if you're out at a restaurant, or on vacation, you're in 'spend money/have fun' mode. So you're not sitting there calculating how much you've tipped waitresses, bartenders, and bellhops, and figuring out what it's costing you at the end of the year.

This is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. You're wasting you're time thinking in all these hypotheticals. You are not going to change the system, no matter what arguments you have against it. I have alot of issues with alot of things that I have no control over. I think the tax system is all screwed up, but I realize I'm in no position to change anything and ranting about it on the internet=mental masturbation. So I just accept that they're gonna take money outta my check, and I move on with my life.

I guess it can be fun to daydream, and try to come up with better/more efficient systems for things. But if you actually think YOU'RE going to change anything, you're delusional. And If you're using it as an excuse to stiff poker dealers, then you're just being greedy, and reverse engineering some excuse to justify you're greed.

I find that this is very common with human beings. They do something that serves them the best. And THEN they create a whole belief system around it that justify's that original self-serving action.

Let's see if I understand this,

A player wants to keep his own money = Player is greedy.

A dealers wants the player's money = Just what exactly?


Please explain. I thought I understood the word, but I'm feeling really confused what greedy means.

.

It's not technically being cheap. Being cheap is not wanting to pay for something that you should pay for.

It's not technically being greedy either. Greed is keeping things to or for yourself.

I would guess that miserly is more appropriate. But you can't say not tipping is technically being miserly (stingy).

You can have nothing and still be miserly/stingy. But you can't be greedy if you don't have anything.

Should you still tip if you lose? Sure, imo, what's the difference where the dealer's concerned? Unless you received poor quality service.

The amount you have on the table or in your pocket should not matter. It obviously does though.

To me, people who don't tip are miserly. But only in certain situations. Most of the time it doesn't even matter. One person won't tip ("******* didn't tip me!"), bfd, it's not like they owe you.

I was a dealer for 12 years. 3 of my first 5 jobs were waiting on tables. They were great jobs (for me, at that age). And I LOVE to tip (I hate money - mostly my own).

But you know what tilts the **** out of me? Automatically Included Gratuities! I don't owe that "gratuity". Call it a fee and at least I can stomach that ****! Real tipping should NEVER be mandatory.. outside of politics

/blah

You guys clearly have no idea how the system works. In most rooms a % of dealer tips also pay floormen, chip runners, tournament staff and dealer coordinators. Right now you have a choice of tipping or not. If a room jacks up the rake to cover all those expenses, you are now forced to pay into that pool. Are you guys really that dumb? You really want to play in game that's unbeatable because of a super high rake structure?

Ok I'll explain it.

A person refusing to pay for services rendered to them = wanting to steal services for free = greedy

A person wanting to get paid for services they have rendered to someone = reasonable

How are you not understanding this?

If a carpenter comes over and fixes something in your house, is he greedy if he wants to get paid for his services? no. Is it greed if you want to NOT pay him and get your house fixed for FREE? yes

Bad example.

You hire a contracting firm to fix your house. They charge you $200 an hour. They send out a carpenter, who they pay $8 an hour.
He expects you to pay him $30 hr on top of his wages because his boss is so cheap.

That is more like the situation.

Wrong. Because a carpenter is not a tipped service industry proffesion. His salary is worked into the cost. A dealer/waitress/bartender's salary is left OUT of the cost and expected to be made up in gratuity.

Why do I have to explain this? This is common knowledge.

But Ok fine. I'll change it.

If a WAITER spends an hour and a half bringing you food/drinks/delivering excellent customer service to your table, is he greedy if he wants to get paid for his services? no. Is it greed if you want to NOT pay him and get those services for FREE? yes.

So I'm wondering: Is it JUST poker dealers you have a problem with? or is it any tipped service industry proffession?

Do you have an active debate like this going on at some waitress forum? Or is it just poker dealers your singling out?

Who decided what jobs should be tipped, it seems that some service jobs are and some are not?

regarding not tipping on small pots

its not about being greedy nessasarily
if i got to a resteraunt ill tip based on the service and cost of the meal
i think a dollar is too much to give for a hand that takes a very short amount of time to play and has almost nothing in it, so ill tip on every 2 or 3 of these to most dealers

to really good dealers ill always tip on these,on really bad dealers ill never tip on these

I always tip extra in pots that take a while to play because the dealer is missing out on dealing more hands
Ill tip even more if I'm the one who is causing the hold up, even if the pot is relatively small

Find any post where I say not to tip dealers.

Please.

What I have a problem with is posters calling one group of people names (after stating "tip what you want").

What I have a problem with is posters not seeing that George (and there is a reason why I use the name George) who doesn't tip is the reason for their low net income.

These a false logic cropping up in the thread again...

That people who dislike the tipping culture are somehow stiffs.

We can be against the concept, but still participate in it.

I guess I do to some little extent. I give Christmas gifts ( tips if you will) to some service people that usually do not receive them. To a little extent this increases the pressure on others to do the same.
On the other hand, I tip less than others to service people who make over $50,000/year. This allows other to tip less and still be an average tipper.

I do , always, without exception, tip well to any waitress if I may be returning. The thought of a stranger who is upset with me being alone with my food is disgusting.

good carpenter examples cmac.....too funny reading how you try to use that as an example then when someone refutes you mention theyre not in the service industry...well done.