That's right. I was, and the guy you quoted and told he was wrong was too.

There's no shortage of dealers. It says a lot about the job.

The exact quote is as follows:

My response was both correct and on-point. You are the one who is moving the bar.

And lastly:

Exactly what is your point here? That you don't respect the job or the people who do it? Come on, spit it out. Everyone here knows that's what you're getting at anyway, and I think that says a lot about where you're coming from.


q/q

Fine. Then I've moved the bar. Ignore the question and pick nits.

Where's the poker room that can't expand due to a shortage of dealers?

Dealing is one of the best jobs someone with no significant qualifications can get, and yes, it compares in terms of relative skill to operating heavy machinery.

Let me tell you something. I'm absolutely lucky to have my job. I'm incredibly fortunate to make considerably more than nearly any dealer I know, and I probably, in terms of 8-hour shifts, have easier days. But I'm thankful every day for my job, and I'm thankful that my particular niche prevents me from being replaced by guy in Pakistan or Romania. [India is so passé.] I know I can still be replaced, and I think the FSM every day that I'm allowed to come to work and eventually collect a check.

The dealers who object so much in this thread seem to think that they're special -- that they job they do is somehow on a plateau of skill and finesse, and that they're entitled to every penny that they get, and that tips aren't an extra thing that they get, but that every missed tip is taken FROM them - as if they deserved it to begin with.

I appreciate the dealers that deal for me. I tip them roughly in line with what most people in my area do; more when I'm winning, and less when I'm losing, and that stance has been outlined here in bullet-point detail.

...but dealers need to realize that they're 100% replaceable, and that there's an army of barely-skilled college drop-outs waiting to take their job, who, with a little time and training, will deal almost as many hands per hour.

It doesn't mean you're not appreciated or that you don't do a good job. It just means that you need to take a hard look at how easy it is to replace you.

i agree dealers can be replaced but definitely not to the point that you're stating. the first casino i went through training with i didn't learn anything. I was a brush and ended up going through a 2 day class to sit in during a tournament. The 4th casino that I actually worked at I pulled all previous stuff from my resume and started new. I went through their (supposed to be 6 week) 24 day course (because of holidays and snow days our class was "hyper extended"). The course, split into 4 classes through out the day, started with 100 dealers per class and 54 graduated. 54 out of 400 people passed the course or ~7%. It looks easy and has always come easy to me but i've learned through the years some people find it very difficult

Excellent post. Well said.

The question is perfect too. I'm looking forward to see how q/q answers that one.. and still maintain his position.

And I suspected he was going to dodge my question (or just ignore it)

That's a very clever idea! Something like that might work very well. The only problem that I see is that per-hand tips would continue to creep back in if it were allowed, and we'd be back in the same situation.

I have been following this tread closely. He was most definitely not trying to say that. There is no good reason to believe he was.

There's nothing special to infer about my posts. I'll gladly clarify my position -- if it's not crystal clear already.

I appreciate the people who deal me poker. I just wish that the ones who felt entitled to my tips understood that they're pretty damned lucky to have a job that there's no shortage of applicants for.

the difference between poker dealers and forklift operators is the wage. If poker dealers got paid at a decent hourly wage and not the same or less than a fresh out of high school waitress (who also relies on her tips for support) than i wouldn't be upset about a day with no tips at all. In my room when i'm dealing tournaments we make $15/hr + our base rate (mine is just over $4) so i'm perfectly happy not receiving any tips. The problem is when I deal cash and make $32 for working an entire shift (pre tax mind you) that if I received no tips would crush me.

Yes there are a lot of dealers out there but there is skill required to deal poker. If there wasn't then there would be 0 posts on 2+2 about all the mistakes and f* ups dealers make every day. There is a sense of fluidity, mindfulness, a little math, and customer relations (social skills) required that not everyone has. Sure the knowledge of the games and mechanics can be taught but to have everything needed to be successful does require skill and coordination.

Not to mention, take away all of my tips, pay me a little over $4/hr and watch how long i stick around to let my skill improve. Do you really want fresh new dealers coming out of high school working all summer to get money for beer while away at college just to quit as soon as they get semi-decent at pitching you your cards? I know I wouldn't - everyone hates new dealers as it is. Dont pay us something we can live off of (i dont care whether the money comes from management or players [but i definitely appreciate everything i get from a player]) and that is exactly what is going to happen.

By no means am I saying that I expect to be tipped and as mentioned I do, 100%, appreciate every tip that I earn. The issue is the casino and card rooms feel the dealer is doing the player a service. Therefor the player should be responsible for some of the dealers income so the rooms dont pay much at all. I'm not saying I agree with this practice but its just how it is.

How do you appreciate it? I guess I am asking, do you say thank you and drop your tip? What if that tip was cut 1/2 (pink) or 1/4 and the player pulled out a quarter, would you still say thank you and drop it?
(Not trying to be a jag here)

Just wondering what you think to get a dealer's perspective.

I gotta admit I see dealers that seem to have this attitude.

Just this week I had a co-worker (dealer) tell me,
"I can't believe they expect me to say thank you for a measly dollar.".


Check your math on this.
Closer to 13.5% isn't it?


I've had people throw me five cents and I give the same thank you as a five dollar toke.

yea my math was completely wrong there. When I dont really care about a figure I just throw out a number. I went with 10% of 400 = 40 and for some stupid reason estimated subtracting a few instead of adding a few.

Anyways to this quote - I agree completely. Lowest tip i've ever got is a $1/2 coin. 9/10 these come from a 1-3 or 1-5 stud game (50 cent ante) but even when I get thrown a half in 4-8 or 10-20 holdem I still appreciate it just as much as anything else.

When I say I "appreciate" a toke i'm talking about how I personally feel about it on the inside. I'm not a stuck up person who feels I should be guaranteed one every time I push a pot. When I do get one, no matter how big or small I definitely feel gratitude. I show the gratitude by taking the toke, saying thank you, and always making sure to look the player in the eye. I usually do that while I'm squaring the deck for the shuffler but if I notice the player was busy and might not have heard me I often say thank you again while pitching the cards out.

To be honest though, while I appreciate every toke, I have noticed I am a mbit more sincere/blown away when I get a bigger toke. Imagine being homeless and someone giving you a hamburger from mcdonalds. I'm sure you appreciate it and love that tastey burger you got. Now imagine a different person walking by and giving you a nice juicy steak, mashed potatoes with bacon, and some warm broccoli. Do you think you'd say thank you in the same tone? It doesn't mean I dont appreciate the hamburger though

no math required. all you have to do is match stack heights.

keep the money in the game.

if the dealers want to go market their skills somewhere else that does not depend on shaming people then, this is america, go do that.

15 an hour plus benefits. anything more is ridic. these dealers are making 100k plus a year taking the money out of the poker game. taking way too much money out of the poker game.

1 for medium, 2 for large pot. If a dealer hooks you up in some way...sees a flush you didn't see and pushes you the pot, gets the obnoxious drunk off the table, makes a rule exception for a fish or something really cool then go ahead give him a few reds or even a green. But I'll be damned if I am going to voluntarily siphon off my winnings to some ungrateful lowlife who thinks he deserves top dollar for zombie work.

This is a good point. I almost never blame dealers but even I slip every once and again. I lost more than 5K at the hands of one dealer in 2 days and said something in the way of blaming her. I made sure to make it up to her with fatter future tips far outside of my minimal tip philosophy. Dealers should never be blamed or abused for the randomness of cards and when I slip up I make myself pay them for it.

so its obvious you've never dealt for more than 2-3 hands at a time... let alone an 8 hour shift. Find a dealer who acts like a zombie and dont tip them. Thats fine. "Zombie Work[ers]" shouldn't be tipped. Sit in my chair and do my job for 8+ hours and then try to tell me that its zombie work and not math is involved.

PS - Let me get right at that "no math involved just stack chips" rule of yours. I'll make sure to try out on my next 2-5 PLO Pot bet when I don't have to do any math

It's pretty much all math (being a dealer). Not that everyone's good at it.

I guess I'm pretty fortunate. The dealers at my regular casino aren't ungrateful, aren't lowlifes, and aren't zombies.

Wow, is this true? I'm having a hard time believing this is typical.

Really? Where? Because I have friends who deal at MGM, Venetian, Wynn, Bellagio, Caesars, and pretty much every room you can think of, and they make about half that.

Hard Rock Tampa the dealers make over 100K and thats with limited hours (I think they work no more than 25 hrs a week). That is atypical and there is a huge waiting list for dealers trying to work there. And I do try to tip dealers in obviously low traffic rooms more generously.

This info is coming from dealers outside of HR who know dealers in HR. I've never gotten a dealer at HR to tell me how much they make. However the same people have been working there forever and no one ever leaves without dying. Well one guy quit to try to play full time but all I can say is I hope he got on somewhere else lol.

A dealer there told me there is no math just matching stack sizes. I thought about it and it's pretty much true. There are some exceptions of course but IF things go smoothly its all stacking. Counting the raise sizes in Omaha does involves math but there are shortcuts in doing that.

When there is a really good dealer in a small room, if the game is really good I will hook them up, share in the fun tip red birds left and right. But the standard zombie who makes way too much in HR i'm sorry- you deserve a good living wage but I'm not here to make you rich. If you find a card room where none of the dealers want to be promoted because they all make more than the managers then thats your queue to tip less and less often.

hmmmm

This is not accurate at all, No poker dealer at HR has ever made 100k in a year. Back many years ago when they went to $2 max bet(with 3 raises per round) games from the .25/.50 games that were state law, dealers averaged about $31/hour including the $4-$5 hourly long run. Short run could be more.
Averaging 30 hours a week on a 4 day schedule came out to $45k-$50k a year.

Then when they went to $100 max buy in NL games, they likely made a bit more for awhile, but 3 years later the games went full buy in NL games and after a year of that, Their tips have slowed down greatly.
Alot of the recreational players(big tippers) have busted out and there are more and more grinders(small tippers).

It used to be that dealers made more than the regular supervisors for sure but it is likely more even now, as I see more and more dealers putting in a couple shifts a week as supervisor. If the pay was even. Who wouldnt want to supervise instead of deal with all the bs?

Off point but relating to discussion: Arithmetic, including percentages, is a grade school subject. For some positions paying $50,000+, CalcI and CalcII is considered lower level math.

This thread really is turning into a disaster, we're not even talking about tipping anymore, we're having a discussion about salary discussions with HR by 3rd parties, and what would be considered complicated math.

Well, when you have someone throwing around urban legend kind of figures for what dealers make and then add to that, people who don't like to tip, you're gonna have this problem.

I heard there's a private table that DN and Ivey play at a lot where the dealers (lucky enough to know about it) have made 1-$2k.. for one night!


O:-)

Urban legend? you go to hardrock and track the tips. You will likely come up with more than 150K to estimate yearly. 2-3 almost every pot, 5 for anything sizable and then add in the $25 tip on the huge pots (or more). Players split the pots and all types of things. If you get in 25 hands per hour your looking at serious hourly. You can go into HR 10 years from now you will see the same dealers you saw ten years ago from now.