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Old 10-10-2011, 02:34 AM   #1276
The Palimax
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
No, not even close. I guess people simply play at a way quicker pace where you're located. Most NL games around here people get between 14 and 17 hands per down. You're talking about averaging a minute and a half or less per hand.
In my limited samples where I counted tips-per-down, I saw pretty close to 35 hands per hours, if my memory serves me, which puts the number at the top of your range and the bottom of his.

There are a couple dealers who who put out 10 hands per down, and couple that do 20+ for sure.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:51 AM   #1277
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I never understood counting tips per down. I mean I know if im doing okay, killing it or getting killed, but some of the guys I work with literally count every dollar. Seems ocd to me and it would probably tilt me when I get stiffed a ton.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:11 AM   #1278
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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I never understood counting tips per down.
I simply wanted factual information when discussing the topic. So I took notes a couple nights.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:32 AM   #1279
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Jeffawesome View Post
I never understood counting tips per down. I mean I know if im doing okay, killing it or getting killed, but some of the guys I work with literally count every dollar. Seems ocd to me and it would probably tilt me when I get stiffed a ton.
this. after reading all your posts we pretty much share the same perspective on everything. half way through my shift, or maybe a little before if i feel i'll be forced out early, i'll take a quick look and estimate what i've made so far for the day.

$16-$20 an hour would be FANTASTIC if dealers were guaranteed that and 40 hours a week. Fact is most dealers are part time and being part time means you don't know what days you work until 1 or 2 weeks before the work week.

If i'm only getting scheduled for 2 8-hour shifts a week, I don't know what days those are going to be all the time. They aren't set in stone and change every week. There for its hard to get a second job and nearly impossible to get a third. 2 Weeks isn't enough notice to give another company to say "hey the casino scheduled me on tuesday and saturday so i can work for you the other days" In some instances yes there are cool businesses, usually managed by friends and family, that help dealers out like that but for the most part you can't find it. On top of that you never know when a room will be slow and you will be forced out to go home before working your scheduled 8-10 hour shift. Money is no guarantee in the room so every dollar definitely helps make up for the constant stress that brings each week.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:42 AM   #1280
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by MrGo View Post
Stop being cheap and tip anyone working in "service", whether it be a dealer or a waiter. Dealers have to deal with dbag degenerate poker players for a living...they deserve 3x the tips they receive.
Nurses - just one example - have to deal with dbag's all the time and have to clean up **** - literally - and no-one sees fit to tip them.

But pitch a couple of cards or pour a drink into a glass and everyone seems to feel entitled.

Crazy world.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #1281
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by mackem790 View Post
Nurses - just one example - have to deal with dbag's all the time and have to clean up **** - literally - and no-one sees fit to tip them.

But pitch a couple of cards or pour a drink into a glass and everyone seems to feel entitled.

Crazy world.
Nursing often requires a four year degree. Hardly comparable to dealing.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:52 AM   #1282
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Nursing often requires a four year degree. Hardly comparable to dealing.
Which further strengthens my point. Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:38 AM   #1283
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drwonoski View Post
this. after reading all your posts we pretty much share the same perspective on everything. half way through my shift, or maybe a little before if i feel i'll be forced out early, i'll take a quick look and estimate what i've made so far for the day.

$16-$20 an hour would be FANTASTIC if dealers were guaranteed that and 40 hours a week. Fact is most dealers are part time and being part time means you don't know what days you work until 1 or 2 weeks before the work week.

If i'm only getting scheduled for 2 8-hour shifts a week, I don't know what days those are going to be all the time. They aren't set in stone and change every week. There for its hard to get a second job and nearly impossible to get a third. 2 Weeks isn't enough notice to give another company to say "hey the casino scheduled me on tuesday and saturday so i can work for you the other days" In some instances yes there are cool businesses, usually managed by friends and family, that help dealers out like that but for the most part you can't find it. On top of that you never know when a room will be slow and you will be forced out to go home before working your scheduled 8-10 hour shift. Money is no guarantee in the room so every dollar definitely helps make up for the constant stress that brings each week.
Thank you.

So next time George in Seat 4, table 23 does not tip for the two hands he won while you were dealing, remember the real reason you are a little short of funds this month.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #1284
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Thank you.

So next time George in Seat 4, table 23 does not tip for the two hands he won while you were dealing, remember the real reason you are a little short of funds this month.
yea i never expect to get tipped. literally every dollar i get is wonderful and extra. People dont realize that most states have separate minimum wages for people who collect tips also... in CT its supposed to be 5.35 but seeing the casinos are sanctioned i get 4 an hour + tips. Those tips are really what pay my bills.

You can't compare nursing to dealing at all. They make 30+ an hour. You want to talk about crazy lets talk about tattoo artists getting 120/hour + tips on top of that.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:55 PM   #1285
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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yea i never expect to get tipped. literally every dollar i get is wonderful and extra. People dont realize that most states have separate minimum wages for people who collect tips also... in CT its supposed to be 5.35 but seeing the casinos are sanctioned i get 4 an hour + tips. Those tips are really what pay my bills.
I don't think you get it.
If you are "in the box" 30 hrs a week, one "stiff" every once in awhile isn't going to kill you.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:07 PM   #1286
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by drwonoski View Post
If i'm only getting scheduled for 2 8-hour shifts a week, I don't know what days those are going to be all the time. They aren't set in stone and change every week. There for its hard to get a second job and nearly impossible to get a third. 2 Weeks isn't enough notice to give another company to say "hey the casino scheduled me on tuesday and saturday so i can work for you the other days"
Were you forced into your job as a dealer at gunpoint, or did you choose it -- and choose to continue working at it?

"Hey guys, they cut my shifts" isn't reason to increase tipping.

As a benefit of working fewer than 40 hours a week, you get to work fewer than 40 hours a week.

Dealers complain constantly that they're not scheduled full time -- but you don't see them lining up to find different jobs.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:10 PM   #1287
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by drwonoski View Post
yea i never expect to get tipped. literally every dollar i get is wonderful and extra.
And, just so it seems as if I'm beating you up... ...I want to note that I appreciate your attitude on the subject of the tips that you get. You get it.

A few of the dealers in this thread, however, seem to feel entitled to those tips, and that when someone "stiffs" them that they're taking a dollar out of their pocket -- which is completely backward from the way it works. The dollars our ours, and sometimes we put them in your pocket.
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:23 PM   #1288
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
In my limited samples where I counted tips-per-down, I saw pretty close to 35 hands per hours, if my memory serves me, which puts the number at the top of your range and the bottom of his.

There are a couple dealers who who put out 10 hands per down, and couple that do 20+ for sure.
I would agree that 34 or 35 for NL is possible for a good dealer with cooperating players.
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:32 PM   #1289
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
I would agree that 34 or 35 for NL is possible for a good dealer with cooperating players.
A number of hands in NL are simply taken down pre-flop or on the flop, which keeps the hands-per-hour up.
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:45 PM   #1290
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

From the last time I took notes, in December. ...from the locked thread on dealer pay around the same time.

10:00pm 11112202112?20?151 = $23+?? = >=$39.42/hr
10:35pm 52101?122102 = $17+? = >=$42.50/hr
10:59pm 21100215142313112 = $30 = $54/hr
11:32pm -- missed down, took break, played significant pots
12:05am ?1211121212121 = $18+? = $41/hr
12:31am 1121125?? <broke> = $13+? = >= $30/hr
12:57am 1122520010130 = $20 = $38.70/hr.
01:28am 11001202301200110 <broke> = $15 = ~$30/hr

18 hands in 35min
12 hands in 24min
17 hands in 33min
14 hands in 26min
13 hands in 31min

Not counting the broken tables, as there's an unknown amount of rack-up time. 74 hands in 149 minutes, or 2.01 minutes per hand, or almost exactly 30 hands per hour, or 15 per down.

Also, $1.45/hand in tips, for a total of $43.84/hour in tips. ...and the question marks up there show I missed a few potential tips too. I have to look down and stack my chips every once in a while.

...on grossly small sample size.

[Yes, I know dealers are only dealing 6/8th of their shift, and don't work full time. If you want to argue this, submit DATA. Anecdotes is not the plural of datum.]
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:49 PM   #1291
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
I would agree that 34 or 35 for NL is possible for a good dealer with cooperating players.
As quoted, my memory isn't what it used to be. 30/hour was about what I saw last time I took notes.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:21 PM   #1292
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I do very well, but I also deal well. I appreciate everything and never look at it as you're taking money out of my pocket. I know how lucky I am to have this job and I work hard literally every down to give my best service and get better. I also realize I am in the vast minority.
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:11 PM   #1293
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Those who search relentlessly for the best deal on a new car, or who haggle mercilessly over the price of a home, are seen as savvy. The same holds for those who seek the best deal possible on virtually any product or service, including labor; if a business owner stood his or her ground at contract negotiation time none of you would label him or her an an ogre. (I'm referring to negotiations that are conducted in good faith; I'd like to think such moral people as the 2+2 community would opt for drawing and quartering if the negotiations were conducted in a reprehensible manner).

But if those don't tip dealers till their fingers bleed are piranhas.

Would someone please step forward and explain this to me ?


The total number of card rooms of which I'm aware that would have more tables going if only they had more qualified dealers available to them is zero. (Note: I haven't been to every card room in the U.S., but I've damned well been to a ton of them).

The total number of qualified dealers of which I'm aware who are either unemployed or (more commonly) underemployed due to the fact that supply far exceeds demand is in the hundreds. (I hear it every day: “If only I could get more hours . . .”)

Yet here we sit bemoaning the fate of all those unfortunate dealers who currently receive a wage that exceeds – by a sizable margin – that received by others in “similar” jobs.

Is dealing taxing on one's body ?

Probably. But so are many jobs, including coal mining, and dealers make more than coal miners. Dealers also make more than Kindergarten teachers, and as for being taxing on one's body, I'd ask that you chase a dozen or more five-year olds around for six hours before invoking the “taxing on one's body” argument.

Does dealing require some level of intellect ?

Unquestionably. But so do many jobs – including coal mining, and teaching Kindergarten. (See: Above)

Would the world collapse if competent dealers were replaced by incompetent ones as a result of a nominal drop (say, 10-20%) in the average wage for dealing ?

Probably not (though MY world would definitely take a hit“ -. However, the point is moot since: 1. As I've already illustrated, a small drop in the average wage would have virtually no effect on the quality of available labor |and| 2. There currently exists almost no correlation between wage and quality. (Some of the best dealers on Earth work at the Bellagio, and there are perks to working at this particular room, these perks do not include the highest wage; low stakes games are among the most lucrative games to deal, and the “B” has a relatively small number of these).

Conclusion: The average dealer's salary is far in excess of that it should be – and not because I say so, but because the marketplace says so.

*

Addendum: I'm not sure the following has any place in a logic-based discussion of the preceding topic. That said, it does deserve mention somewhere. I have no doubt that I “gave away” more money last year to charitable causes (as well as individuals in need) – both in terms of actual dollars, and percentage of income - than all but a select few of those who've voiced their opinion on this issue. The very idea that seeking to pay less for a product or service equates to tightfistedness is ludicrous, and serves only to obfuscate the relevant aspects of this issue; moreover, those making this claim know it is. If tipping a red chip on a $200 pot (in the hope your opponents will perceive you as someone who doesn't care about money), or dropping a greenie on the bar for a beer and telling the bartender to “keep the change” (in the hope your decision will be noticed by the slightly drunk girl at the end of the bar) pleases you, then by all means go for it. But you destroy your credibility (to say nothing of embarrassing yourself) when you claim that these acts amount to acts of commendable generosity and/or benevolence. When you give that washroom attendant – the one who cleans up after other people's bodily functions all day long - a handshake, a sincere “thank you”, and a twenty, and when you do it with nobody watching, we'll have something to talk about.


Thanks for taking the time to read this. I eagerly await any and all comments.
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:33 PM   #1294
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Those who search relentlessly for the best deal on a new car, or who haggle mercilessly over the price of a home, are seen as savvy. The same holds for those who seek the best deal possible on virtually any product or service, including labor; if a business owner stood his or her ground at contract negotiation time none of you would label him or her an an ogre. (I'm referring to negotiations that are conducted in good faith; I'd like to think such moral people as the 2+2 community would opt for drawing and quartering if the negotiations were conducted in a reprehensible manner).

But if those don't tip dealers till their fingers bleed are piranhas.
Could have something to do with the amount of money involved. In the case of a car, you're talking about thousands of dollars. In the case of a home, tens of thousands of dollars. These are generally serious life decisions which people put a lot of thought and effort into and shape the way they live.

Tipping a poker dealer is $1 or $2 at a time, generally coming out of discretionary entertainment money. Most people who play aren't full timers or anywhere near it, thus the total sum of what they tip probably wouldn't amount to that much.

There are also very few people with regards to this topic who want everyone to "tip until their fingers bleed". Just about everyone is fine with an average of $1 a hand, maybe a bit extra on big pots. Nobody is pushing the idea of giving 1/4 of the pot to the dealer.

Quote:
The total number of card rooms of which I'm aware that would have more tables going if only they had more qualified dealers available to them is zero. (Note: I haven't been to every card room in the U.S., but I've damned well been to a ton of them).
I'd agree with this. Then again, there are people here whose posts would suggest otherwise. The B+M forum is filled with people starting threads over minor dealer errors which caused them to become irate, and many of these people claim to prefer certain rooms over others because of dealers. Who knows.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:21 AM   #1295
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by ohnonotthat View Post
The total number of card rooms of which I'm aware that would have more tables going if only they had more qualified dealers available to them is zero.
This is not only wrong, it is radically wrong.

But the funniest part is, this is posted on a forum where a large portion of the posters constantly complain about the low quality of the staff in certain rooms and why, as a result, they won't play there anymore.

You can't have it both ways, but that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone here from trying, and it's pretty much not worth my time to keep belaboring the obvious.


q/q
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:47 AM   #1296
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I have no problem tipping deals considering the stuff they have to deal with. The constant berating they receive from players on a frequent basis is just absurd. I've never understood why people always yell at the dealers as if they really can control what cards they deal.

I don't tip on tiny pots of like $10 (NL $100 level) but on any pot of substance I'll always throw out a $1 to the dealer. I'm there to grind so you'll never see me shell out anything more, but a little something to them isn't a big deal.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:39 AM   #1297
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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This is not only wrong, it is radically wrong.
Uh, which casino then wishes it could open another table, but can't find enough dealers looking for jobs?

We've only got 20 tables, but MAN, we'd totally have 30 if only we could find dealers...
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:59 AM   #1298
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
Uh, which casino then wishes it could open another table, but can't find enough dealers looking for jobs?

We've only got 20 tables, but MAN, we'd totally have 30 if only we could find dealers...
He's talking about quality. I won't play at certain rooms because of their lack of quality staff.
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:33 AM   #1299
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Uh, which casino then wishes it could open another table, but can't find enough dealers looking for jobs?

We've only got 20 tables, but MAN, we'd totally have 30 if only we could find dealers...
You're talking about adding physical tables.

I'm talking about adding customers to fill them.

That's what I do for a living, and I'm damn good at it.

Hire any random low-wage worker off the street? No problem. Enjoy your empty tables, and good luck with your business plan. I'll be over at your competition, making them a ton of money.


q/q
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:06 AM   #1300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadsOverQuads View Post
You're talking about adding physical tables.

I'm talking about adding customers to fill them.

That's what I do for a living, and I'm damn good at it.

Hire any random low-wage worker off the street? No problem. Enjoy your empty tables, and good luck with your business plan. I'll be over at your competition, making them a ton of money.


q/q
I said I wasn't going to post in here anymore, so I guess I lied. I don't lie very often. However, playing cards and tipping are 2 subjects that I think I'm pretty familiar with, so it's hard to keep my mouth shut.

I just wanted to know q/q, how you know that you're damn good at your job? I take it you run a poker room somewhere? Or maybe you're a casino host??
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