I don't think this would happen.
If rake at one place had $1 in rake but you weren't expected to tip, I wouldn't avoid it.
If I had to choose between that room and the room with the traditional system, I would choose between them based on other factors.

It is clear you have very little understanding of the economics of poker rooms. Most poker rooms lose money. Some break even and a couple scratch out small earnings. The financial benefits to a casino are mostly secondary (or even tertiary).

Before responding, please answer one question: why do you think El Dorado closed most of the poker rooms when they took over Caesars Corp?

Yes. A nice anecdote (a single piece of data shows nothing). If anything it proves my point.

How often do you play poker at Binions nowadays? Never. Why is that?

Sure, if was explicitly said that dealers would not accept tips. I would love that. That is not what I was talking about though. Also, why do you think it is that absolutely no poker room in the U.S. has gone to that model?

I would have no problem with this. None, but I am guessing that participation at lower limits would drop and possibly disappear. It doesn't have to do with economics. It has to do with psychology. The whole part about "putting it past the players" would matter. Time raked games are terrible for a casino (unless the time rake consists of hundreds of dollars per hour such as in peivate casino games).


Here are some undisputable facts:

1. Supply and demand still matter. The amount dealers are paid directly affects the quality of the dealers. Pay can be based upon base pay, tips, or whatever, but in general, it is an economic fact that employee quality is directly highly correlated with pay.

McDonald's doesn't generally draw from the high quality and performance pool of workers.

2. Poker rooms are not printing money for casinos. They MIGHT be break even and it is arguable that there are plenty of 2nd and 3rd order benefits to a casino having a poker room. No doubt. But there is also an economic reason more casinos have shut poker rooms than opened them in thebpast few years.

These are simple, basic economic facts. We can discuss why this is and I would be wide open to alternative scenarios of higher paid dealers that do not accept tips, but unless these are taken into consideration, you might as talknabout a world where everyone can teleport because it is the same science fiction

Ok. Let's look at this another way. What percentage of players do you think are aware of rake to the point they account for it?

I've been around card rooms a long time. I'm well aware of how it operates. A poker room doesn't earn as much PROFIT as it would if they filled that square footage with slot machines AND those machines had people in front of them. That is how a casino determines that a poker room is "losing" money.

You are trying to sell it as if they are not covering enough in earnings to pay employees and all other expenses and have to dip into other resources from the casino to keep it operational.

It sounds like they've got you to do their bidding for them. Nice job on them, especially if you're not an employee simping for them and are just a green player, which it sounds like you are.

Have you ever been to Talking Stick Resort and Casino? That was built from a 50-table cardroom. Temporary structure with 50 poker tables and no other games. Then when they made enough money, they opened another a few miles away and when that was open for playing, they tore down the old one and built a new one there - rinse and repeat until the huge resort you see there today was built. This was done on only poker money because slots and other table games were not legal, but they knew they would be one day.

Have you ever been to the Commerce Casino? 200 poker tables. They must be philanthropists since poker rooms are "at best break-even." Have you ever been to Foxwoods?

As for why no casino has gotten rid of tipping? Is that a serious question? Let me know if you really want me to answer that.

What psychology is involved in time charge games that would drive away players? It seems you don't understand the reason why mid and high stakes games are time and not raked in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "account for it".

i think very few can do the math on the exact impact of rake

but playing at mgm springfield, you commonly find pure recreational players who drove a bit further to go to springfield than nearby boston because people talk about the rake so much

highstakesdb.com published an article on Jan 5th, yes, last week, that expresses that poker is now potentially unbeatable now that MGM in Vegas has gone with $6 rake. Raising 'concerns' about sustainability and profitability for the Players.

Not sure if they just needed to fill space, but I was not that impressed with the content and flow of the piece. Perhaps someone not that familiar with poker?

We all cringe at the 'ground breaking' rooms that take that first step towards change in poker. Well, buddy, rake on the east coast is $10 .. so it's actually a relief to find 'only' $6 rake at MGM for some Players.

Not really a tipping point here, but it does offer the disconnect some have even though they are 'in the industry'.

Charity Rooms in Michigan typically store the rake in the tray and it's picked up each hour .. I've seen for years that the awareness of how much that Rake takes off the table is either 'low' or just accepted as a part of the game.

On to tips .. Michigan Gaming is constantly enforcing wishy-washy ways for Dealers to be tipped. At one point banning chips to be used as tips .. forcing Players to purchase gold coins or keep cash on the table (not in play). IMO Dealers will 100% agree that forcing a Player to tip with cash will reduce their tips by A LOT!

Similar to the quick fluid motions an experienced Dealer takes to remove rake from a pot, it's just super easy to toss over a chip for a tip. BUT when it's an actual piece of currency the Player suddenly realizes that their extra Starbucks shot is not being threatened, so to speak.

Gaming wants tips to be 'redeemed' into cash immediately as they are offered to the Delaer .. AND the Dealer may not touch any chips that are offered as tips! Tip Chips must be placed on the rail 'far away from the Dealer's reach' or handed directly to a Charity Worker for redemption. One inspector was even bold enough to say that a tip was 'too big' when a Dealer received $20 for a large PLO pot .. saying that it was taking too many chips out of the game and he was going to go back and tell the boss that it needs to go back to a cash only system. Tip collection containers/cups are strictly banned by Gaming Policy. (Yes, that's in writing!).

Not sure there's any one point here .. just FYI stuff .. GL

There was a thread posted about this, saying that it is $6+$2 because of the rake for promotions.

The hilarious part is it was a whiny thread posted by JimL, the guy who has made several posts here the last couple of weeks saying how high rakes are a good thing. Sounds like he's changed his tune a bit.

Seriously, when will people playing in pot-raked games put their foot down and demand time games? Never. Y'all will let them raise the rake to $20 per hand and will still happily sit down and play.

There is a Rake Thread now open .. probably move most of this to that ..

I'd rather play lower stakes in a raked game near me than the $22/hour they get out of the next stake up with time rake. $198/hour is more than $120-140 in my math book. GL

You're playing in a $10 capped game (is that figure with a promo drop included?) and only $130 comes off the table per hour? Doubtful of that claim.

Either way, I said put your foot down and demand time games at the stakes you're playing at, not for you to move up to a game you can't beat just so you pay a lower rake %.

Saying that poker room lose money or break even is dumb.

The true statement is “Machines and games are more profitable than poker if you calculate profit per square meter”

The only poker rooms Ive seen that died are the poker rooms that were not really popular and there was not a lot of players willing to play. Guess what else dies when it isnÂ’t popular? All ****ing businesses. If nobody goes to your restaurant sooner or later it will be closed. Restaurant are harder because margins are thin and foods need to be fresh, poker is easier, when the set up is there you just pay staff, building, etc.

25 hands per hour / 20 hands that sees that flop, thatÂ’s 20 times the rake per hour. I feel itÂ’s pretty easy there to pay for the dealer, pay for the floorman, pay for the heat, hell, itÂ’s pretty easy to make millions while you sleep having a poker room, as long as thereÂ’s people playing,

Also I didnÂ’t put side benefits, poker players goes to gamble inside the casino, casino players goes to play poker, wife has nothing to do plays the machine.

But overall I do admit that it seems hard to land a popular cardroom, pehraps because it is that : a cardroom. ThatÂ’s kind of a niche thing. i mean if you tried to open a cardroom about card games that arenÂ’t poker, I didnÂ’t see those lasting the winds of time either.

Exactly.

If the slot area were 4 deep waiting for each machine in a particular casino, their poker room would be shut down the very next day and slots would be put in.

As is, they don't have enough slot or table players to offset and exceed the profit the poker room is bringing in each month to justify tearing it out and putting in machines or house tables in there.

It takes a super green person to think casinos are providing a service that is costing the casino and their shareholders in less overall profits than if the service wasn't provided.

In an effort to get this thread back on track....

Last week a player who I don't know won a small pot and tossed me a dollar. A couple seconds later he said, "Oh, I forgot about inflation." And he tossed me another dollar.

Does anyone tip more now than they did a few years ago because things cost more than they used to?

The "tip us more due to inflation" suggestion is what led this thread down the rake rabbit hole and how cardrooms are "too broke" to pay their employees.

But to indulge you, the players you are dealing to also have everything costing more in their lives, AND also the cost to have you deal to them has gone up. Why haven't you asked your manager for a raise to hedge inflation?

You have a long-standing tendency of assuming hidden motives behind my posts. How do you know what conversations I have or haven't had with management where I work?

I can promise you that if I ever am trying to get a raise, I won't be coming to 2P2 for the funds.

So, Land O Lakes, have your own tipping habits changed in the last 20 years because of inflation?

Hidden motive? The motive seems clear: bring up an anecdote of someone increasing their tip size due to inflation and then ask if people are doing that in order to plant the seed that they should be doing that.

Eh, I know the type.

No idea what this means.

For stellar and world-class dealers, inflation has had a negligible effect on the tips they receive from me. If you asked them, I'm sure they would agree.

But... let's get back to this: do you expect your microdonk players, whose rakes have gotten higher, whose cost of living has gotten higher, whose winrates have gotten lower, to tip you more?

What's common to see in this thread is people basing tip amount on pot size instead of dealer competency. Now you're saying that it doesn't matter that people are playing the same stakes and the pot sizes are getting smaller - you want more money from them regardless.

I don't tip more because of inflation, but I tip more now that I play bigger. But maybe they overlap!

You are certain that my motive is to plant a seed in the 2P2 tipping thread that will spread to the extent that I'll make more money. But when I say that I have no intention of coming to 2P2 for a raise you "have no idea what that means."

Let me be clear. I want to make as much money as possible. Just like most people do in all sorts of professions. What I expect is that tips will remain about the same, regardless of inflation. And I expect my annual wages to remain fairly consistent for as long as I'm a poker dealer working at a casino. And if and when my wages as a dealer aren't enough to support my lifestyle I'll either quit, get a 2nd job, or stop eating out so much.

Interesting. For years you've been harping on people's tipping practices, but here you say that you want your wages to stay the same and don't care about inflation but that you also want to make as much money as possible. Seems a bit contradictory.

This is the tipping thread. If you see a post from me here, don't be surprised if I'm sharing my opinion on people's tipping practices.

And I never said I wanted my wages to remain the same. I said I expect that they will stay the same, even though I wish I made more money.

I see... so just general griping and no attempt at influencing whatsoever.

Why would you expect your employer to never raise your wage?

I dispute that my comments in this thread are griping or an attempt at influencing people to tip better. I believe that people who come to the 2P2 forum are by and large either a) winning players, b) think that they're winning players but are mistaken, or c) take poker seriously enough that they believe they will be winning players in a matter of time, when their experience and skill improves. The vast majority of above average tippers are losing players who look at poker as purely a recreational activity and who tip by emotion and whim and don't assign the types of tipping formulas you see again and again in this thread. ("I tip $0 when there's no flop. I tip $1 on pots between $25 and $100. I tip $2 on pots between $101 and $300.") And so on. I don't foolishly believe that this type of player is going to change his philosophy of tipping because of something I post on 2P2, and I certainly don't believe that any 2P2 post of mine is going to go viral to the extent that it actually affects my earnings where I work. I'll probably push a winning pot to 150 (or so) different players the next time I go to work and I doubt that more than 2 or 3 of them have ever visited the tipping containment thread on 2P2, and those that might have visited this thread have already made up their minds about how much they tip and why they tip the way they do.

Every casino I've ever worked at pays their dealers minimum wage plus tips. Every casino I've ever heard of (in the USA) pays their dealers minimum wage plus tips. I make a good living. I work in a room that gives me steady hours and in a typical 8 hour shift I usually deal 12 or 13 tables and don't have a ton of dead spreads or up-downs that you see in some other rooms. And I rarely deal a tournament down (which almost always pays less than a cash game.) The fact that I'm still working as a dealer means that inflation hasn't caught up to me to the point where I'm worried about my budget. Nonetheless, I wish I made more money. Furthermore, my best year dealing (in terms of total wages earned) was in 2015 or 2016 and I doubt I'll ever reach that number again.

And finally, throw me a bone and take me at face value for once. When I say that I'm trying to return the thread to a discussion of tipping, stop assuming that I have some devious intent. I don't. The amount of revenue a casino makes per square foot has nothing to do with this thread.

In other words, griping. It's all good.

But you should certainly promote, whenever appropriate, the concept of tipping being a reward for service that goes above and beyond and not, "I won a huge pot, let me have the dealer share in the joy," as you like to say. People seem to understand the concept of tipping based on performance at a restaurant, but don't get it in a casino.

And before you say it's none of your business to tell anyone here or otherwise how they should tip, if people actually tipped dealers based on performance and it caught on, the players and the dealers would be happier in the long run.


Yeah, well, sorry for throwing the thread off course by discussing a topic (rake) that has a correlation to dealer tips - (that veered into clown world about how casinos spread poker games out of the goodness of their hearts) - you know, there is so much about tipping that has yet to be discussed in this almost 10K-post thread.

Do you think many people vary their tips at restaurants much based on the service? It's been shoved into everyone's brain that they need to tip 20%. And if there's something wrong with the meal, it's not generally going to be the fault of the wait staff, or at least the customer can't know for sure if it is. I figured most people stick to that kind of tip unless their waiter really screws up.

The issue with 'service' is you can/need to separate service from the food in a lot of cases. Typically cooks don't get tips but have a great influence over them .. fair?

I look at every situation as it's own and consider as many influences as present themselves. A 'server' who is attentive is still 'good' even if other areas of the experience are off that day.

Can't blame the server if the room is hot/cold .. only what they do during the experience. GL