Cincy used to use the promo fund to give out seats to tourneys or pay overlay on guarantees. Scam.

Unfortunately I think a lot of rooms do this. And it's often not easy to know when it's happening, or how much of the cash game players' money is being used to subsidize tournament players.

Very common, actually. Some rooms do it indirectly by giving away seats to cash game players as a promotion, others just pay it directly and don't tell anyone.

If the seats are given out as cash game promo, I don’t see an issue. If the promo fund is used to pay an overlay but no promo fund $ from tournament, I have big issue. Even bigger if done behind the scenes. Now if tournaments contribute to promo fund, if covering overlay is listed as a use and if this is all out in the open, I still don’t like it but don’t see anything nefarious.

100K collected. 75k paid out. Table shorted 25%.
Next hand. 25K left over. 18,750 paid out. Table shorted 25%.
Next hand. 6,250 left over. 4,687.50 paid out. Table shorted 25%.

Just because that 25% doesn't represent the same absolute dollar value each time doesn't mean that in each instance the table wasn't shorted 25% of what's in the total prize pool.

I mean, what's a better story for a 1/2 busto to say to his wife when he comes home after a jackpot, I won $50K tonight, or I won $37,500? I'm sure the wife would think the missing $12,500 would look better in her purse than reseeding the pool for some other suckers.

Yes, I'm well aware that what they're doing is by the letter in the small print.

There is a reason why mid and high stakes games do not steal money from players, though, and it's not because jackpot money isn't substantial enough.

No that is not how it works.

100k collected, 75k to primary bbjp with 25k to secondary. On the next hand, call it #1, jp is hit. The whole 75k is given out. Now primary jp is $25k and secondary is zero. Next hand, jp hit again, the full 25k is awarded. Now in hand #3 jp is hit again but the primary is zero.

I'm not trying to pile on .. but I keep thinking of things as we go along here. I'm not sure I even like this as I enter it, but ..

IF they paid out 100% of the promo funds for a BBJ, then the promo would essentially end and a 'new' promo would have to be submitted to the governing authority for approval. Now you could say that we just write something into the promo to prevent that, but it may also 're' trigger where the casino/room needs to 're' deposit the seed money that was (possibly) used to kick the promo off and running in the first place.

A nearby casino had a run on BBJs .. 210k, then 68k like 3 days later .. then 8k less than a week after that .. boy were those guys smiling for their picture!! Then again you could play in Reno where the BBJ is fixed at 5 or 10k no matter the time frame between hits.

I do know of requirements where a promo fund can't exceed a certain amount, which forces the casino/room to continually offset the income with outgoing promo payments. This would be for the HH side of things, not necessarily the BBJ side.

I had heard/read about the Cincy issue and I believe the Ohio Gaming stepped in eventually but not totally sure what they did other than make sure that they knew complaints were being heard about the practice.

I do like the comparison with the wife .. One of the teeth grinding things that I hear during tournaments is when a Player over-bets the pot and the commentators give him 'full' credit for a huge pot when it goes uncalled. Yes, technically it was 'in the pot', but he only profited like 25% of the pot (or less) and they play it up. Yes, they are there to play it up, but just tell the viewer what really happened and let them learn something.

Correct. It is because the higher stakes games do not benefit from a bbjp. These jps are run to pull in players and or to get them to play longer. The higher limit players are not chasing jps at those stakes so those games don’t benefit. If those players want to chase jp they can drop down in stakes.

There are other reasons also but it is not because it is generally perceived as theft

There are plenty of good high-stakes games without any promos to "lure" players to the games. If the room wants to run promos because they think it increases rake, then they should pay for it.

People who play games with a promo rake are like people who buy lotto tickets each week, except they're doing it dozens of times per day. In over 5 million hands played, I think I've come across a qualifier at the tables like 15 times and was involved (i.e., winner or loser) 2 or 3 of those times.

If you play 9-handed, then take $1/9 and multiply that by how many total hands you've played. Is that number > what you've taken down in promo payouts?

“ There are plenty of good high-stakes games without any promos to "lure" players to the games. If the room wants to run promos because they think it increases rake, then they should pay for it.”

Which is the same thing I said. The hs games jps don’t pull in more players so the game would not benefit. Those games are same with or without jp, so those players push and convince house to exempt those games.

I never play games for the promos but I have played in games because of the players promos attracted. More guys playing more hands (often poorly) to try and hit promos is fine by me. If I hit a promo so be it. If the promo itself is 0EV, then with the players attracted and adjusting to their play can be +EV.

“The casino should have to pay for it”

They’d just raise the rake to pay for it.

At least in WA, you know the JP rake has to go back to players. If it was just another $1 of rake, they could do whatever

High stakes doesn't mean unrestricted buy-in 1k/2k no-limit. Plenty of people would sit with 5 or 6K at a 200/400 fixed-limit game if there were an advertised 100K jackpot to take their crack at 50K on their way to a $100 minimum blackjack table.

So yeah, a free 50K would provide incentive in most high-stakes games for wanderers, but it's not enough to incentive regs to pay for their lottery tickets day in and day out. I can't imagine it's much different at 1/2.

If they stop the promo rake and then raise the rake, then you shouldn't play. Players have a lot more negotiating power than they think they do. It's not 1977; you don't have to use picket signs to get your message out or to educate people.

very random question and one that I'm sure has been answered a bazillion times...

As we all know, some casinos pool tips and some dealers keep their own. My question is why? Like why the difference in policy, what is the advantage to the casino of both methods?

Obviously good (or just attractive female) dealers tend to prefer to keep their own as they make more than the average dealer, is the pooling tips thing to make sure that bad dealers get a high enough wage to stay put?

I’m not sure why casinos do it, but I find it to be a generally bad idea for poker games. I think it’s a much better idea for table games dealers, where good tables are more of a “luck” factor.

The reason it’s bad for poker games is that bad dealers are weeded out because they don’t make that much money. And good dealers should be rewarded.

Yes totally agreed and I also dislike the policy in the poker room, just trying to figure out why they do it. Consistency across the property maybe? Shrug.

I don't think there's been a super deep discussion on this, but one of the main reasons for pooling tips is when 'all' the Dealers are in a union or otherwise 'under contract' of some sort. One of the casinos in our area even combines poker tips and pit tips (and I'm not even sure if those folks are in a contract or not).

Talking points could go in lots of directions, but IMO I think the trend is for Players to tip less in a pooled environment. GL

It happens in markets where competition is low. Foxwoods used to have a pooled policy. When Mohegan Sun opened their poker room and let their dealers keep their own tips, all of the good dealers went to Mohegan while the **** dealers went to Foxwoods. The difference in talent was night-and-day for a few years until Foxwoods finally made the switch, then it took years more for it to approach equilibrium.

We had a room here that also was pooling pit with poker tips. Of course they were also sharing some dealers back and forth so maybe it made sense. But the rotating dealers between pit and poker is imo a big part of why we HAD this room.

They reopened room, were short staff do they were trying to train pit dealers for poker. That was fine but moving them back and forth was not fine and not fair to the dealers. Never gave them a chance to get good. Mechanics and particularly procedures were just to different. And then you add pooling tips with pit to boot. No wonder it was a disaster.

Also agree that pooling with pit lowered my tip rate plus the poor dealing also reduced what I tipped. I could not tip the better dealers better to encourage them to continue getting better

considering a trip to play some pokers once it warms up

despite being american, 100% of my play has happened in non tipping environments online and in europe/asia while live

what's the rundown on whom to tip and what amount - not strictly talking dealers here, i'm talking the whole shebang - am asking because in an lvl thread someone said you tip the front desk for leaving your bags there and that one definitely surprised me

I have never tipped hotel front desk and don’t leave bags there. Will leave bags with bellman. Him I tip. At most I take a small back pack, almost a man purse, to the poker room and I would never leave it at the desk. So I am not sure what “they” meant about tipping the front desk.

I will assume you know about non-poker tipping and will only focus on poker tipping.

Dealers:
First rule tip how much you want incl nothing. It is your choice.
Most players tip from each pot they win. How much again is up to you but generally varies with stakes. At low stakes a buck or two and maybe a red bird for a particularly good pot. In a 25/50 game prob a couple of red minimum, maybe even a green. I would watch what the other players are tipping and then decide what I will.

Some people tip dealers whenever they tap in or tap out. Some even both. I never do either. At least one poster here doesn’t tip by hand but by down. I will allow him to elaborate if he chooses.

If I see dealer do something well or right, I will tip and also let them know why. E.g. recently had a dealer announce a hand “BBonly”. Normally will hear “dead small blind”. One of my pet peeves. Another time this same dealer moved the button backwards when btn and sb both busted and left in same hand. That got a red bird. I will say she is one of the best dealers I have seen anywhere. She always gets more tips from me than any other dealer. She just runs a damn good game.

Many tip a dealer who delt th3m a high hand. I don’t. You are just getting some of your own money back. Promos are already generally neg EV. But up to you.

If you happen to be lucky enough to win or be at a table for a BBJP, custom is to tip dealer who dealt it. Since that dealer is going to lose at least 45 min of tips and usually even more, this makes sense to me. I have heard some say tip should be 3% which is just shy of a full table share. I say nuts to that. I am not going to try to get a dealer $3K of a $100K BBJP because he misses 3 downs of tips for the 90 min he is tied up. Sorry nope. The one I hit (table share) I was closer to 1/2 of that but I also tipped based on what I get after tax. Note if I know the dealer well and like him, I will try to give him the option of an off the books tip. Iow will almost stiff him at the table but then later, away from casino maybe, will meet for the real tip. I will let dealer decide since technically it is his job at risk.

As discussed earlier here, pooling tips will affected how much I tip. Pooling just with this days poker dealers is meh. I won’t change much if at all. But if pooling with all the poker and pit dealers, I am gonna cut my tips. But that is me. You do as you wish.


Floors:
Some rooms allow tipping floors some don’t. I prefer the latter and him never tipped a floor. Now if I was a reg in a room where it was allowed and expected, I might. Sometimes tipping floor will move up the list or get you a quicker table change. Might get you a heads up to a particularly good game. Maybe even a txt about that game if you aren’t in the room at all. Since these can impact your win rate and since your competition is doing it, I might give it a thought but would never like it.

Chip runners:
We don’t have them so not much experience. Plus I will buy at least one rebuy and keep it in my pocket. And top offs will come from dealer. But at places where they have runners, I will tip a little if I use the service.

Waitstaff:
Tip as you would on the floor or in a bar. My wife tips a dollar for a 6 oz cup of coffee that would cost half of that and she drinks lots of coffee. OTOH she never has to wait, often they just bring her the next one w/o asking and sh always gets the real cream. If you do tip more, enough more, you will usually get better faster setvice

While waiting for my seat, I saw a guy win a huge pot ($500+), toss $2 to a female dealer, get up and expected her to stand up and give him a hug. I stood there in disbelief as he was rebuffed, sat back down and asked for his $2 back.

What a complete jackwad ... and $2 for a huge pot isn't that much either.

wtf i don't get hugs with my tips?

~1$ per hand you win

Issue is that a lot of the dealers seem to dislike it (though probably some really do like it they just keep shtum).

Was more inquiring if there was an advantage to the casino in making dealers pool their tips. I assume yes.