To be fair, I think there's a tacit agreement that when you go to a full-service restaurant that you'll provide a tip when service meets a fair level.

I excuse the uninformed. I understand that not everyone knows what appropriate tipping policies are in a number of areas*, but it's fair to say that most adults know some guidelines about tipping in restaurants.

So, right or wrong, the argument at the restaurant is that we know that this situation exists, and it's a social faux pas to not give 15-20% of the pre-tax amount as a tip.

If you don't believe there's a tacit agreement - a social contract - then it's not unethical.

--

[*Is it $2 a bag for the Bellhop? Is there a $5 minimum? What about skyhops? Is that only a dollar? Does the taxi guy get extra if he puts your stuff on the curb? What's appropriate at the barber? What about at the spa? What if I put the spa charges on my room bill? The room? Sheesh, how much for the maid? When did we start tipping them? Did they always have that envelope on the nightstand? The ice-cream guys have a jar now. WHAT?!? Chipolte does too? Should I put my change in it? Or dollars? What's the standard...]

Just where does the tipping stop are you supposed to tip everyone that makes minimum wage just because their employer is too cheap to pay more and if dealers actually want a higher wage why do they keep voting against unionizing? And again can someone answer this:
If it is customary to tip a wait person 15%. If I order a $50 steak and coffee the tip would be $7.50 but if I order a $10.00 steak and coffee the tip would be $1.50 so what did the wait person do differently to earn a larger tip they both delivered the same amount of food and drink?

Agreements and expectations are separate entities. And expectations can be justifiable or unjustifiable, but they are outside of the domain of ethics. If I'm wrong, please show me why.

Claiming the existence of a tacit agreement is more or less an answer to my original question of whether I'm ethically obliged to express my intent before dining. You seem to suggest I am. If your claim is true, talking with the mgmt before dining should prevent any wrongdoing on my part.

I don't like the process, where some jobs are magically deemed tip-worthy and some aren't. I worked in the back of a restaurant and busted my ass more than the servers, and I never saw a dime of tips... It's "fair" because I could have become a waiter, I suppose.

Are you asking a question on the first part? IS it customary to tip 15% for standard service -- then yes, I suppose that's a reasonable baseline although it varies by region and type of restaurant, yes. [A buffet or fast-casual, for example, may have a smaller or no tip...]

To the second part -- are you asking WHY we do it, or are you asking for an explanation as to WHY the tip on a $200 bottle of wine is more than the tip on a $40 bottle of wine since they both required the same amount of effort?

The answer in both cases is -- because that's the custom, and because that's the tacit social agreement. If you don't believe such an agreement exists, then don't pay it.

...but you can't possibly be asking what the server did differently, since we both know that the answer to that question is: "Nothing."

Are you trying to make us understand something you think we don't understand?

What's next? Are you going to explain that shaving in the morning is a silly custom too? Well, we agree.

...lets bring back hats for men too. Those were at least practical.

The server at the Chicken and Waffle joint down the street gets a lot less in tips than the server at the Steak and Lobster joint up the street here, and the C&W server probably busts their ass a lot more. But we all knew that before anyone typed it out.

---

It's a dumb contract, but we all signed it. If you believe you're not party to the social tipping contract, then you're not bound by it.

It's obvious that the tacit agreement exists -- I mean, go to a restaurant and watch people participate in the custom.

So, yes. I believe that if you have no intention of tipping, and have no shame in doing so, at a location like a restaurant where tipping is a single event that happens AFTER service, I would politely explain my position to the server and/or the manager. It shouldn't change your service, but you might as well set expectations early -- since theirs is that they're going to be tipped (see social contract).

To extrapolate this to the poker room, I might politely tell the dealer if the situation allowed, or explain to the floor my objection. The model of constant tipping ($1 every once in a while instead of $20 in a lump sum at the end) might make it obvious long before the $20 was up.

@DHAL

I was going to wait and try to trap you, expecting you to answer with a "Then why do you do it?"-type of response; but I am beginning to feel that I don't have too much left to add to this thread (though, I have gained valuable insight in recent discussion), so I don't want to spend too much more of my time here. That said, let me preemptively answer that question (whether or not you were going to ask it):

I am not the server's employer.

I do not agree, so there is no agreement. By making this clear w/ the manager, I have avoided any confusion. If the manager tells me I have to tip 15-20% if I felt the service was good in order to dine at the restaurant, then that is the manager's prerogative; and I will respect that. At that point, I have the freedom to agree with the manager and tip accordingly, and I have the freedom to disagree and leave. If the manager tells me that tipping is optional, then I have the right to exercise my option.
This is a legit answer to my question. Thank you.


Perhaps it would be a good idea (or even ethical) to discuss intent with the floor prior to playing, politely asking something to the effect of "Is tipping optional?"

You and I agree on principal. My agreement is with the casino or the restaurant. I pay $10 for a club sandwich or $12/hour to have poker dealt to me, and the service should be excellent no matter how or if I tip. The restaurant and the casino are obligated to provide me with good service for that $10 or that $12, and anything on top of that is extra and not a requirement for people to do their best work.

I do, additionally, believe there is a tacit agreement to engage in the (stupid) tipping custom. I don't like it. I'd love to change it. I think people have horrible misconceptions about it. ...but I participate in it.

To me this is akin to not paying a mortgage in a no-recourse state and living in the house for a year or two while the mortgage paperwork gets transferred from one company to another, despite your ability to pay the mortgage if you wanted to.

It is totally within the legal bounds of your contract. The remedy for the mortgage company is spelled out in clear terms. They can begin the eviction process after a specified number of days, blah blah...

If your ethics are solely bound by what's on the paper -- e.g. a club sandwich is $10 plus tax -- then don't tip.

If you feel you're crusading for fairer working environments by not tipping, then don't tip.

But unlike many in this thread -- I still think you should get service with a smile with your $10 sandwich.

I'm thinking that the best (most practical/effective) way to go concerning tipping, when you are averse to tipping, at an establishment where tipping is the norm is to first approach the mgmt, politely and briefly telling them your position, asking if tipping is optional, and proceeding from there. Everything is negotiable.

I'm not talking legalities or liabilities. I'm talking ethics. If there is an agreement, verbal or otherwise, then there is an agreement; and, ethically, it is my responsibility to fulfill my end of that agreement as best I can. I suppose tacit agreements are legit in that there are other ways to communicate besides verbally or on paper. By verbally making it clear I do *not agree, I have established that there is no agreement between myself and the vendor; then, I can negotiate from there.

^I'm thinking that this is fairly conclusive for me. Procedurally, stating my position, inquiring about the terms of service, negotiating the terms of service, and then acting from there appears to be optimal in approaching an establishment, in which tipping is the norm, as a stiff. And this can all be done with a quick phone call ahead of time.

*Thank you to all itt for helping me arrive at this present conclusion, especially DHAL and Palimax.

And, by the same argument, employees are required to provide you only with basic service that meets the minimum agreed-upon standards in exchange for their basic wage. Anything on top of that is an extra, above and beyond the requirements of the job.


q/q

The most practical/effective way to go concerning tipping, when you are averse to tipping, is to stay out of situations where tipping is the norm.

No matter what... who you talk to, phone calls ahead of time... if you stiff a tipped worker, you look like a cheap jerk.

If you're the kind of worker that just does the bare minimum to get by, then sure.

Those of us with a good work ethic always do our best.

That's just "a convention".

Like tipping, it can be ignored if you like.

See how that works?


q/q

Not really. Poker usually does not operate in a free competitive market because local law restricts the supply. That's why gambling is a great way to learn the territorial system that is more common than free markets.

He had attitude. One of the older dealers who just didn't care any more, and who, like some people in this thread, made it obvious he required tipping or he would intentionally screw things up. Not that you'd notice it EVERY down he dealt, but if he was in a bad mood and somebody stiffed him, he'd sometimes make his displeasure apparent.

I watched this dealer one time pull the cards away from UTG after he finished pitching just as UTG reached for them to look at them. UTG's fingers were on the cards as he tried to pull 'em in, and the dealer literally yanked 'em outta his hand and mucked 'em--no way it was an accident. UTG yells, dealer yells back, UTG yells for the floor, floor obviously can't really do anything to fix it, but also seems to have heard this sorta story a dozen times before and doesn't seem surprised by it.

Same dealer was very obviously mis-aiming the cards to another player once who didn't tip him the previous hand. It was comically obvious, as the players to either side of this guy got their cards pitched right to 'em, while the victim over and over had to reach halfway across the table and his two cards were often 3' apart on the felt.

Yes, he probably was the dealer with the worst attitude in Vegas. I haven't seen anything quite like him in several years. You still don't get to ask other players not to tip him. They can figure this out on their own. And you can take your concerns for his attitude and unprofessionalism to the management directly.

The above will delay the game. Other players should stop tipping this dealer this down for that reason if no other.

How and where did this happen????

Added a table game, Three Card Poker to the poker dealers rotation, since the California/Asian side dealers didn't want it. The lack of tips effectively make it a dead spread. On average, one down per shift (dealers deal 40 minute downs, maybe 9 downs per shift) on that game.

Then, they had to help out on payouts/time collection/change making on some of the table games (the "Corporation", ie the de facto House Bank, had been doing it in violation of the law). Effectively another dead spread, since they might get toked $5 for the down if they were lucky.

So, on average, dealers were getting maybe 1.5 fewer downs dealing poker per shift.

The club was also breaking poker games at 5pm to free up tables for more profitable Asian games.

Do you see me advocating ignoring tipping conventions? [Answer: No.]
Do we all see you advocating a bad work ethic? [Answer: Yes.]

How much was the poker rake raised by to compensate the dealers?

As we know, any reduction in dealer tipping will cause the poker rake to rise...

They had already raised the rake. Of course the dealers all got a $0.00/hr raise.

Ownership bought the club in 2007 for $43M ($21M cash + assuming $22.5 in debt, which they paid off in under a year).
Now they are building a new $100M facility.

Unpossible!

We've been told for hundreds and hundreds of posts that any change to a dealer's tip-rate would have to be made up for in increased rake -- not that rakes are totally and completely unrelated to dealer pay and are instead just a factor of how much the market will pay for poker.

You mean they, *gulp*, just paid the dealers less and there was still no shortage of willing, available dealers?