Yes, but it stated things that didn't actually address the situation, like your statement that there was a 100% chance the dealer would make an error. You keep stating that the fact that a player doesn't know which card is going to be the river means that which card is actually going to be the river hasn't been determined yet, and that is false. I think you are somehow connecting the fact that the card is randomly selected with the idea that if a randomly selected card is replaced with another randomly selected card, that the outcome is not effected. But is is. Because of the fact that the card has already been selected, and is later changed.

Let's say you are on a TV show, and you have to randomly select a card out of a deck. If you select a jack or higher, you win a prize. Lower and your opponent gets the prize. You randomly select a king. It is out of the deck and in your hand. Whatever the odds were of you drawing a king doesn't matter at this point. You drew it, and it is in your hand. You don't know what card you drew yet, but that doesn't change the fact that a king is sitting in your hand. As soon as the dealer tells you to reveal your card, you will win the prize 100% of the time. It's a lock. Your overall odds of winning don't matter at this point. You beat the odds and picked a king.

But then, then dealer says oops, I told you to pick the card too soon. So instead of the card in your hand, we are going to have you draw another random card. This time you pick a three, and your opponent wins and you lose.

That "oops" mistake cost you that prize. Absent that oops, you win. Period. At that point randomness or whether you know what card you pick doesn't matter. FOR THAT PARTICULAR HAND, the oops cost you the win. it doesn't matter if over time the oops that help you balance out with the ones that hurt you. In this particular case, the oops caused you to lose a 100% win.

You keep re-explaining things that everyone understands. In one sense you are correct, but it's a useless sense. It doesn't help you in any way to think about things that way, so there is no point in it.

Thanks for the context, Riverine. I think you're just fighting to the death on a point so trivially true, so at odds with good poker thinking, that no one can believe you're insisting on a point that literal.

It's like if someone insisted that a paint card can't come on the river (meaning the cards aren't actually made out of paint, but only explaining that after the fact) and then got upset that no one agreed that a paint card can't come on the river. In fact there is no river because if there were then the casino's carpet would be flooded.

We just assume some points are so literally self evident that... yeah.

Taking what you wrote at face value, I'd say that dealer is on my **** list, I don't like them, but I'd continue to tip the base amount.

People say/do stupid **** when they're frustrated or had a bad day. It'd be hypocritical for me to judge them for that. If it was a pattern of behavior, or what they say/did was particularly egregious, I could see taking that course of action. I have no problem with you labeling that comment as "particularly egregious," so I don't really have any problem with what you did.

So......... **** neither of you?

It's like arguing that if there are two outcomes, probabilities are 50/50 automatically because "it'll either win or it won't."

In law there is a concept of causation-- in certain contexts a party must have "caused" a result in order to be bound by whatever doctrine (held civilly liable, satisfy the elements of a crime). However there is a whole bunch of case law discussing "actual" versus "proximate" cause that distinguish between initiating unlikely chains of events resulting in harm and being a more direct involvement.

Compare shooting a gun in the air and hitting someone a half mile away (a clearly predictable result when you fire live ammo into the air) and a porter handling a suitcase containing (unbeknownst to him) explosives, which then detonate, causing a shockwave that knocks over something across the room hitting someone in the head and injuring them.

So yes, if a dealer botches a deal that requires a reshuffle of the stub, they are actually resetting the RNG, and could be arguably the "cause" of the outcome. However, the concept of RNG itself is the proximate cause of all outcomes, and all decisionmaking is based on that paradigm, so it's somewhat silly to blame the dealer for the deck placement.

If you go down that road, you might as well blame everyone at a blackjack table who doesn't set the shoe just right for you, stealing your card... or that guy who just hurried back from having a smoke and took a hand, and had he not gotten there, the deck would have broken just right and you would have had quads over quads, so **** that guy!

So, I'm a guy that tips for smallish pots, $2 for larger pots, and maybe like $3-$4 after a very large pot. No one has ever had a problem with it, and I've never considered myself stingy...I'm just trying to actually make money in the long term.

After finishing a session, I'm talking to a friend and this guy (one of those 30ish, burnout grinder/dealer types) approaches us, points to me and says "Hey you! What do you do for a living?" I give him a confused look, then answer literally. "I work in enterprise software sales."

"Oh, well uhh....have you ever worked as a bartender or in a restaurant?"

"no."

"Well, How would you feel if you worked in a restaurant and some guy only tipped you $4 after ordering $500 worth of food?"

After my eyebrows returned to my head, I spun my heels and walked off. Obviously, I had to resist the urge to explain what a ludicrous analogy he was making.

Do dealers actually think in these terms? Obviously, I found this totally unacceptable, though I didn't report him to management.

Yes, all dealers expect a bare minimum of 20% per pot and usually 25%-30% if the service was good. If you can't afford that, please stay home.

Cut the guy some slack.
He probably lost 4 buyins playing 5/10/20 PLO the night before and was still steaming.

My base tip amount is way better than most in those draw games if the dealer is a professional and competent one. My wife thought I was a dick for stiffing him in my high-stakes game for **** that happened in a small-stakes game where the table was tough to control and I was drinking and ****ing with people, possibly adding to the chaos.

My contention was that either you're a professional dealer or not, and the stakes do not matter but was willing to reconsider if people here thought otherwise and give him his tokes when I'm back in Vegas in a couple of weeks.

We all understand what you're saying. The fact is you could rerun the river once or a million times and the chance of that card being the 5d is the same each time, so it does not matter. You can elect to not tip or to tip based on the outcome of that error, but you're tipping on randomness. Most here would judge tip amount based on why the dealer made the error, and not the actual result of the hand.

The basic test is this - BEFORE the mistake, would it have mattered to you if it happened or not? So here with QQ, if they said "do you want the natural river, or another random card", you wouldn't care a single bit, since your chances of winning would be the same either way. You don't know if the natural river or the random card is good or bad for you, so it is irrelevant.

Same as a dealer who exposes one of your cards. Just as likely to turn K2 into AK as the opposite. So you wouldn't care if asked ahead of time (if you are one of the most thoughtful players at the table, it is a very slight advantage for you, since you're more likely to profitably use the info of the exposed card).

Same as the idiot at 3rd base hitting a 12 with a dealer 6 showing. It doesn't affect your expectation, so you shouldn't care. If they asked ahead of time without showing any cards, would you pay extra for the dealer to get the 1st card in the shoe instead of the 2nd? Of course not.

So for the people who decide no more tipping if they lose a $100 pot "because" of a burn and turn, if instead the new river changed it so they won, would they tip an extra dollar for the next 100 pots to make up for it? Somehow I doubt it.

But even professional dealers can have a bad down or a rough day. If they make one inappropriate comment to you, are they forever banished to the ranks of the unprofessional, never to be tipped again?

Whenever I have reached a point with a dealer where I am considering not tipping them going forward, I try to talk with them away from the table, between pushes or somewhere, and explain why I feel that way and try to see if the situation can be worked out. I might not tip a dealer for a single hand or down if something bad happened on that down (usually along the lines of being rude, rather than just make a process mistake.) Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. But if it is serious enough a problem that I am considering stopping tipping, I let them know.

This is because they may not be aware of how bad the issue is, or there may be some extenuating circumstance I don't know about. Simply stopping tipping without explaining why rarely will fix the problem. If the next time you see that dealer, he deals a perfect, fast and professional down, pushes you a bunch of pots, and you stiff him, what reaction do you expect him to have? He will likely not associate the being stiffed after a great down with the fact that he said a bad comment to you weeks ago. Instead it will just seem to him that you are being a jerk.

You sort of waived off your contribution to the chaos at the table because you were a little drunk and you don't normally act like that at the table. I don't think you would think it was fair (if somehow there were a way for a dealer to punish you) if he did it to you on future downs when you act appropriately on those downs.

That's why I've never been much for putting dealers on no tipping lists without talking to them first. It punishes them even when they perform well, which usually leads to more tension and bad feelings, and who wants that at the table? It can become a matter of being vindictive and spiteful rather than trying to effect a change in dealer performance.

Of course, in the case of a premature turn and burn, the original river IS known, because it was exposed. So that test doesn't really apply. And I mentioned in an earlier post exactly how people will punish a dealer for money they believe the dealer cost them, but never reward the dealer for a mistake that benefits them. Sort of like in craps, where if a die hits a persons hands and a seven comes out, people will threaten to cut his hands off. But it the die hits his hands and the point comes out, no one ever says "nice hands".

I understand the difference between the odds of a random card vs the actual effect of a mistake on a known outcome. I think this horse has been beat enough now and we can end the derail, as the analogy was simply to give an example of another situation where players have stopped tipping dealers for months over an event, just as the OP was considering doing. But the real discussion about whether to tip or not going forward got derailed into a discussion of randomness, which is best left for another forum or thread.

I specifically and explicitly said BEFORE THE MISTAKE IS MADE. Before the dealer puts out the river prematurely, it doesn't matter to you whether that happens or not. So that test does apply.

What I meant was it didn't apply to the analogy we were discussing, since no one was talking about making a choice before the card is known.

-I find his "comment" to be outside of the boundaries of having a bad day. If he said it to another person at the table, then I likely would have stiffed him the same way or tipped small, like $5 for his down in the other game.

-As for the mixed draw games, those are technical to deal. Either a dealer has it or doesn't, then it's just a matter of degree for those who have it. I'll offer constructive criticism to a good dealer who needs to refine something. I won't waste my time with those on the other side, and I'll certainly never pull a dealer aside under any conditions to discuss with them about being an *******.

-It was 3 days later, not weeks later. As I said, not sure he recognized me or not, but no way a dude rage-tilts like that and doesn't remember his behavior unless it's a normal occurrence. Since he can deal mixed draw games, I'll resume tipping so long as he proves he can remain professional. My guess is he's an ahole in small games and not in high games.

-I didn't waive off my contribution to the chaos. I was toking $5-$10 at the end of each dealer's down in addition to what I was toking on pots due to how difficult and slow the table was. I was not acting inappropriately at the table.

Thanks for your thoughts.

My post was saying you are being a fool to be mad about the results of something occurring that you wouldn't have cared about happening before seeing the results.

So if I go allin and the dealer mucks my hand, that's a mistake that is negative for me, regardless of anything else.

A burn-and-turn, just like my other examples, is neutral for the player until after it occurs and you see what the card is. It's just as likely to help as to hurt.

As I said, I think this derail has run it's course, and there is no need to rehash the same arguments again with you.

some dealers do. some players do.
the dealers are entitled, the players are complete morons.

Then there is no need for you to keep repeating yourself as you have done with every post after your first.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rese...ient=firefox-b

Is pretty ****ing dumb to tip. Check out this explanation.
Do you tip the garbage man? No right. Why tip the dealer then?

also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBTfj2lN6sQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k

hope this video s help you understand.

Stop tipping don't be stupid

you must be a TRASH tier poker player with an ABYSMAL win rate if tipping $1 a few times per hour determines if you are "making money" or not. lmao

im sure you crush that 1/2 tho lol

Thinking that tipping is stupid and doing something about it (encouraging your casino to change their policy) is one thing.

Thinking that tipping is stupid and screwing people over in the mean time while it is still the norm and they are relying on it to live is selfish.

Those of you that are complaining about tipping while doing nothing positive to affect change are just abusing part of what you think the system should be in order to get long term benefit.

In reality what would happen if tipping was removed would be higher rake. Why aren't you taking the money that you're not tipping and giving it to the casino and telling them to pay their servers more? Or when you're out to a restaurant, why aren't you giving it to the establishment and asking them to split it evenly among all the servers? Because you're selfish.

I see it like this: you can either let off steam by being unnecessarily rude and sarcastic to players or you can be upset about dealing well but still not getting tipped.

**** him.

Seems to me like he was taking you into his confidence when he griped about the drunks at the table and wasn't taking a shot at seat 1. A dealer would have to have a major case of "IDGAF" to call out a player in that way, and dropping an F-bomb no less. He probably thought that seat 1 was somewhat competent, even with all of the jokes he was making at the table.

Seems like tipping him for the big pot at a later date would have been the right thing to do.