No doubt in this sense that poker only players are being subsidized by others in the room. But I'm not sure what the point is. This is the same idea that grocery stores often have lower-margin on items like milk and eggs that are traffic drivers. It doesn't mean they can serve spoiled milk or rotten eggs just because they don't make as much money. They need them to drive traffic so that customers will buy other items in the store that are higher margin.

If the grocery store doesn't want to provide decent service and quality on milk and eggs then customers will go to another store who will happily provide good quality and service on milk and eggs even though they are not high profit margin because they know they drive traffic.

Maybe you overestimate how much traffic is being driven to other parts of the casino that wouldn't otherwise go there anyways and it might make more financial sense to close a poker room instead of wasting resources coddling some high-maintenance narcissists who play poker.

The only "estimating" I'm doing is just noticing that a lot of casinos have poker rooms. And I know casino management is not stupid. Therefore I deduce there must be some sort of value.

And we get it. You don't like poker players.

So, you agree that if poker rooms aren't offering the level of service that you think they should, that it is probably because non-stupid casino management has determined that it shouldn't?

Yessir. But heck my needs are pretty minimal. Fair rules, decent dealers, reasonable wait time.

No use arguing with a casino about offering better service for poker rooms. I can argue with my feet.

A lot of your post is true
But as a group dealers are even more entitled than poker players which is really saying something.

Sometimes
Although if you're a tanker for example throw the dealer a couple of extra bucks for putting up with your nonsense


As far as casino management not being stupid:while there are exceptions,casino management is generally pretty stupid.

Some are, some aren't. I thought electronic tables were more of a big deal in 2008 than 2018--Jeff Hwang was positively raving about how they could open up new worlds with 50c - $1 PLO at the Excalibur back then--but I'm genuinely curious where they've been successful.

Rooms that existed only to catch the tail end of the poker boom have closed. Other places that never had poker before now have it. In Seattle, where I live, we have California-style cardrooms that don't have other games. Some are struggling, some are booming. (Local tax policy matters a lot.)

Sklansky had a great article many years ago about this: Don't confuse the greater average profitability of slot machines with the marginal profitability. If a casino has 10,000 square meters of slot machine space and 100 of poker, the slots certainly bring a higher return on average. But turning more poker space into slots may not be a gain, because the slots market may already be saturated.

Plenty of places are keeping poker rooms open, but aside from cardrooms they're never the biggest money maker.

Really good nuance that good get missed. DUCY

I think you would be considered a good tipper by dealer standards.

What percentage of poker players are this "special breed" you are referring to?

I don't read this thread, let alone post in it. But I need to vent, and this empty well is the place to do it:

I got stiffed more in the past three nights, than in the past three years. I work in a great room, with a great staff, and a great roster of players. I've dealt all over the USA, and this room is the best job I've ever had. And I still, on these three awful nights, made a lot more than I used to make when I first broke into this biz, dealing 7stud for $.25-.50 tokes.

But these stiffs had one thing in common: they were all under the age of 30. Most looked younger than 25.

I'm just warning you young guys right now: if you pay for minimum wage dealers, you're going to GET minimum wage dealers. Guys with a brain aren't going to stick around, when they're smart enough to learn how to do something else.

I know three days isn't much of a sample size. But I also stumbled over an article this weekend (Bloomberg?) about a study that found of all the demographics possible--race, gender, income, whatever--the biggest standout when studying the tipping culture is that MILLENIALS DON'T TIP. By far, the biggest group of "I don't tip a penny" is folks under 30. The biggest group of "I only tip 15% when I dine out" is folks under 30.

So you kids are warned: if this is the future, deal me out.

(Looks like multiple media outlets reported on a tipping study by creditcards dot com. Here's the Washington Post's write-up, suggesting that Millenials would prefer to eat at a place that charges more instead of being expected to tip; they're most likely to check the smallest box on the app that suggests different-sized tips, or leave no tip at all; and they like to eat fast food-style joints like Chipotle over slower, table-served options. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.4f74673c101e )

While I can understand why this would be frustrating to you as a tipped employee, I think it is good news for society in general. I have always hoped that the tipping culture in this country would be phased out, in favor of more honest pricing and better pay by employers.

i read the same article.

i'm not sure which is more infuriating- watching good dealers get stiffed by people who tank all the time, or watching people throw huge tips to terrible dealers.

Come to Washington! Or CA when they get their living wage law implemented.

(Actually I generally tip 12-15% at restaurants here now because the server is supposed to be making $13 or 14 an hour base pay. I wonder if the study had any living-wage states included. I'm long past 30 fwiw)

I somewhat agree as a social scientist but it really really sucks and is unfair to the good dealers and servers in the transition. It's like international trade--demonstrably beneficial to a nation's economy, not so much if you're one of those losing a job.

Anyway, while tips automating performance based pay is nice, cardroom management should be able to reward top performers better anyway, probably with less sexism, racism, ageism, etc.

Get the casino to pay the ‘tips’ aka wage increase. They make so much from rake and table games. We don’t tip in Asia or pretty much in casinos anywhere else in the world. So it can be done. Was at the roulette table the other day and was up maybe 3k from $200 average bets and was told by the dealer that tipping is expected in the US. I asked her does the casino rebate me when I lose? I am already paying $10.80 per spin and you want more!!?? That shut her up.

The main point is the casinos are too greedy and try to paint the players as villians when in fact they are the ones.

Has to be the first one. I'll throw the dealer a little extra in front of them (if they are an annoying pro).

Seeing whales tip huge to bad/rude dealers is whatever. Makes it even easier for me to stiff them if I scoop a pot.

You mean like how you paint the roulette lady as a villain when in fact the casino is?

My favorite part is that a public-facing employee refusing to argue with a customer means he "shut her up." She shouldn't be trying to educate players on tipping anyway, but having done so, it's not the persuasiveness of our friend's arguments that ended the conversation.

So you think the roulette dealer was right to be asking for tips?

Well that was not my intention at all. She was a nice lady who's just doing her job and that tips is a big portion of her income. I get all that. She was just politely informing me that tips is allowed/expected in US casinos, probably assuming that i didnt know of that culture.

My reply was just simple. I have given enough EV to the casino, get it from them, not me. Period.

Well if she was bold and thick-skinned enough she would probably go on and 'educate' me considering tips make up a big portion of her salary. But the fact that i pointed out how much in exact amounts i'm giving the casino probably knocked some sense into her that i am a big enough victim in the whole setup, and to probably make her have a little more empathy for the players.

It's so sick how the first roulette wheels were single zeros and the US were the ones who introduced the double zeros. Just more evidence how much additional EV/edge the US casinos want/have and that they want to skin all players as much as possible.

Point is, get it from the casinos, not us. Its just even more infuriating that the dealers think they had a role to play in your 'running hot' at the table games and that they deserve tips even more. You need more players like me to 'educate' them that that is simply not how things works, at least not in most places around the world.

You're a victim of your choice to play roulette. Are you an addict?

No doubt it’s my choice to play roulette or not. Your stating the obvious. I probably misused the word 'victim' in my post. Probably 'customer' is the better word.

Of course i know i am donating to the casino by playing roulette. But my choice to play roulette or not has nothing to do with the tipping problem I have described in US casinos. Your completely missing the point.

The dealer probably wouldn’t have asked me to tip had I been down 3k. So because she ‘helped’ me run good all of a sudden I ‘should’ tip? No. Because I’m already paying enough to the casino for the entertainment to watch the ball spin on a wheel. I do not owe the dealers a living. The casino does.

insert "do you tip wait-staff at restaurants?" argument and follow it with 50 posts about how it's different while the only difference is that the roulette dealer doesn't have the perceived ability to spit in your food. You're deciding to use a service being offered and shorting your end of the deal because you can get away with it with no tangible consequence.