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Old 05-20-2018, 03:29 AM   #7826
Reducto
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

To recap:
Generous amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip because they're already overpaid.
Measley amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip, it's not our fault their manager is screwing them.
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:29 AM   #7827
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto View Post
To recap:
Generous amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip because they're already overpaid.
Measley amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip, it's not our fault their manager is screwing them.


It can be further simplified to this: if someone else mandates the tip, that's the tip.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:36 AM   #7828
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Rapini thanks for your perspective on my specific situation.

If anyone else has an opinion on this specific circumstance, that would be much appreciated.

Tourney info:
$1500 + $175, the $175 is $110 rake and $65 to staff and dealers.

# of entries is 500+


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Old 05-20-2018, 04:48 PM   #7829
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by br3nt00 View Post
Rapini thanks for your perspective on my specific situation.

If anyone else has an opinion on this specific circumstance, that would be much appreciated.

Tourney info:
$1500 + $175, the $175 is $110 rake and $65 to staff and dealers.

# of entries is 500+


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Worry about the poker part of the tournament. If you cash and feel like tipping more than the 4% that came out of your buyin, then leave whatever amount you feel like.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:15 PM   #7830
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by br3nt00 View Post
Rapini thanks for your perspective on my specific situation.

If anyone else has an opinion on this specific circumstance, that would be much appreciated.

Tourney info:
$1500 + $175, the $175 is $110 rake and $65 to staff and dealers.

# of entries is 500+


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quick guestimate math.

$32,500 top pool at 500 players.

2 day tournament, say 20 hours of play. 40 dealer downs.

Minimum of 60 dealers to start.

$13 or so a down per dealer.

Whether that's acceptable to you is your decision to make.

Probably even less because I've never seen the full $65 go solely to the dealers. Probably cuts in floors and other staff.

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Old 05-20-2018, 05:39 PM   #7831
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuluck414 View Post
Quick guestimate math.

$32,500 top pool at 500 players.

2 day tournament, say 20 hours of play. 40 dealer downs.

Minimum of 60 dealers to start.

$13 or so a down per dealer.

Whether that's acceptable to you is your decision to make.

Probably even less because I've never seen the full $65 go solely to the dealers. Probably cuts in floors and other staff.

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If you think that every dollar that is withheld goes to the dealers - or even a high percentage - you are sorely mistaken. You can be assured that "tournament staff' includes floors, porters, EVS, etc. The dealers are lucky if their cut of anything that is withheld is 50%...

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Old 05-20-2018, 05:43 PM   #7832
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1967 View Post
If you think that every dollar that is withheld goes to the dealers - or even a high percentage - you are sorely mistaken. You can be assured that "tournament staff' includes floors, porters, EVS, etc. The dealers are lucky if their cut of anything that is withheld is 50%...

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That was the caveat at the bottom. Best case scenario if my math is correct is $13 a down. It's probably closer to half that.

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Old 05-20-2018, 06:14 PM   #7833
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuluck414 View Post
Quick guestimate math.

$32,500 top pool at 500 players.

2 day tournament, say 20 hours of play. 40 dealer downs.

Minimum of 60 dealers to start.

$13 or so a down per dealer.

Whether that's acceptable to you is your decision to make.

Probably even less because I've never seen the full $65 go solely to the dealers. Probably cuts in floors and other staff.
You math is horrible.

$13 a down is $26 an hour.

32500/26 = 1250 table hours

So you just multiplied 60 dealers times 20 hours.... not how it works.

After the first half day, you are going to have a lot less tables. And a lot less dealers dealing. The second day will start with much less. You want them tipped from the tournament when they are dealing cash games?

Even at the start, 50 tables, 50 dealers dealing, and 10 on break. You, of course want them tipped for their break time too.

So, there is no way that there will be 1250 table hours (or 2500 downs).
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Old 05-21-2018, 03:55 AM   #7834
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

At least 30% is likely going to supervisors so that number is not as high as it looks, but it's still a decent amount. Tipping is not required but is definitely appreciated.

The math that came up with $13/down is definitely wrong but I'm not going to try to come up with the right number because as I pointed out, nobody cares when the number is really low. They just like to point out the cases where it's high to justify not tipping ever.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:08 AM   #7835
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto View Post
At least 30% is likely going to supervisors so that number is not as high as it looks, but it's still a decent amount.
Even in jurisdictions like Atlantic city where supervisors are on salary and not allowed to receive tips?
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:15 AM   #7836
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

There are a few properties where it all goes to the dealers but they are in the minority.

Just because a supervisor can't take an individual tip doesn't mean they aren't getting a share of the tip pool.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:43 AM   #7837
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I certainly would consider it false advertising if a tournament had an add on labeled "dealer appreciation" and the money didn't all go to the dealers.

If it doesn't, and players aren't tipping because that seems like enough, dealers have a legitimate beef with the house about the way this is being handled.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:48 AM   #7838
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I know this is a tipping thread ... but ... anyone want to come work in Michigan? Dealers and Floor now being considered for Labor Day (or post Labor Day) new 14 table room to open south of Grand Rapids, Michigan (on the good side of the state) at Gun Lake Casino, Wayland, MI.

"New dealers will initially learn blackjack, completing a free-training, prior to promotion to the poker room. On average, new full-time dealers can expect to make up to $43,000 annually, with free health insurance, free shift meals, among many other benefits."

Now this verbiage wont get by anyone in this forum, but I did talk to a Pit Boss last night and it's more there for the existing employees to feel like they aren't being 'gone around' for this opportunity. GL

Last edited by answer20; 05-21-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:59 AM   #7839
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto View Post
There are a few properties where it all goes to the dealers but they are in the minority.

Just because a supervisor can't take an individual tip doesn't mean they aren't getting a share of the tip pool.
Supervisors in Illinois can not accept tips and are not allowed to get a share of the tip pool. Unless of course the dealers want to take the supervisors out for a beer after the tournament.....right......
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:46 AM   #7840
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto View Post
At least 30% is likely going to supervisors so that number is not as high as it looks, but it's still a decent amount. Tipping is not required but is definitely appreciated.

The math that came up with $13/down is definitely wrong but I'm not going to try to come up with the right number because as I pointed out, nobody cares when the number is really low. They just like to point out the cases where it's high to justify not tipping ever.
there's certain MGM property in AC where tournament rake is smaller, only 3% goes towards dealers, they tournaments levels increase slowly and as a result go on forever (until recently they wouldn't facilitate deals either)

they also employ ungodly number of dealers and pay decent tournament rate

it shouldn't be on players to come up with extra cash in the casinos that practice stealing from their own dealers
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:22 AM   #7841
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Land O Lakes View Post
Take it up with your boss.

Little history lesson. The Binion's never charged vig on the $10K main event. The price was $10K and every dollar went to the players as a thank you for playing all the other events.

Then Becky charged a fee, and many people didn't play, and those who did left no tip. The dealers were outraged because Becky kept it all herself, and then the following year Becky charged an additional fee, specifically for the dealers and staff. Since the boom was starting, the protesters just sat and played with even a larger vig because people were gifting their $10K away.

So, take it up with the boss.
I wasn't bitching about staff fees coming out of tournament entries. I was informing the thread about a misconception.

If you have a problem with the system why don't you take it up with my boss?
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:10 AM   #7842
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
I wasn't bitching about staff fees coming out of tournament entries. I was informing the thread about a misconception.
I didn't say you were bitching.

Dude said 4% goes to staff and dealers. If you're not getting enough of that cut, then it's on you and your fellow dealers to demand it. If they don't give it to you and the players are not tipping enough extra and you keep dealing tourneys there, then you have tacitly agreed that that's the market rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
If you have a problem with the system why don't you take it up with my boss?
I don't even know where you deal. The only problem I have with "the system" is it's a money grab for the casinos. They can't steal it as easily in the cash games, so they stick it to the tourney players where the costs of running the tourney can be obfuscated more easily. Likewise, though, when I sit and play, then I'm tacitly agreeing it should be what it is.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:37 AM   #7843
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Land O Lakes View Post
I didn't say you were bitching.

Dude said 4% goes to staff and dealers. If you're not getting enough of that cut, then it's on you and your fellow dealers to demand it. If they don't give it to you and the players are not tipping enough extra and you keep dealing tourneys there, then you have tacitly agreed that that's the market rate.



I don't even know where you deal. The only problem I have with "the system" is it's a money grab for the casinos. They can't steal it as easily in the cash games, so they stick it to the tourney players where the costs of running the tourney can be obfuscated more easily. Likewise, though, when I sit and play, then I'm tacitly agreeing it should be what it is.

You telling me to "take it up with my boss" implies that I'm unhappy with the system and that I'm venting here at 2p2 instead of doing something about it. I'm simply informing this thread that there's a misconception about tourney tips, tourney staff fees, and about how they're calculated.

You guys seem to think that every tourney is a universe upon itself where the tourney director is sitting in his office with a formula trying to get the dealers to a certain amount of dollars per hour or dollars per down and I'm here to tell you that it isn't the case.

And it's like that at every room in South Florida that runs tourneys. So take it up with any of the bosses if you have a problem with it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:17 AM   #7844
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Land O Lakes View Post
The only problem I have with "the system" is it's a money grab for the casinos. They can't steal it as easily in the cash games, so they stick it to the tourney players where the costs of running the tourney can be obfuscated more easily.
This is entirely untrue. Let's take a small tourney like a 1 day $350 buy in type tourney. That tourney will run 12+ hours. I can make more money off 6 cash tables in the same amount of time as I can if I get 200 players for that tourney. So those 6 cash games need 8 dealers where as the 200 player tourney needs about 30 dealers to start. Which do you think is more profitable? The reason we do the tourney is to get more cash games than we normally would because that is where we make the money. It costs me a lot more money to run that little tourney than it does to run the number of cash games that will generate the same amount of revenue.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:21 AM   #7845
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
You telling me to "take it up with my boss" implies that I'm unhappy with the system and that I'm venting here at 2p2 instead of doing something about it. I'm simply informing this thread that there's a misconception about tourney tips, tourney staff fees, and about how they're calculated.

You guys seem to think that every tourney is a universe upon itself where the tourney director is sitting in his office with a formula trying to get the dealers to a certain amount of dollars per hour or dollars per down and I'm here to tell you that it isn't the case.

And it's like that at every room in South Florida that runs tourneys. So take it up with any of the bosses if you have a problem with it.
Perhaps the connotation of an opening line of "take it up with your boss" is a little off-putting, apologies, but there was definitely some sour grapes in that post.

With regard to "taking it up with your bosses," again, how the vig that goes to staff/dealers is split up is your business; when the Rio takes $50K out of the prize pool for a 3-day event for just themselves, that is my business.
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