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Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM   #7276
27offsuit
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

GL with that.
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM   #7277
browni3141
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 27offsuit View Post
Can never understand why some people take it upon themselves to tip after a down. It is just another example in life in general of people messing with the known process that is pretty much standard operating procedure everywhere in the US. It reminds me a lot of 'nice' drivers that wave other cars out that are waiting for the moron with the right of way to do what he is supposed to do, which is just ****ing go. Just frigging tip them or don't.


And taking it a step further, here is why this doesn't work: Because if everyone did what you are doing, society couldn't function. If everyone tipped after a down, what would that look like? Well first of all it would look pretty stupid. Dealer pushes out of the box, but OH WAIT, everyone starts tipping him after the down now, all at once. Some throw 1, some throw 2, some throw 3, some obv throw 0. All these chips are just flying at dealer who is pushing out while dealer pushing in is standing there waiting for other dealer to gather up all his chips he just got in one fell swoop. "Thank you sir, thank you ma'am, and thank you sir, and thank you, and thank you sir."

It's just another example of people making up their own stupid rules after rules have already been in place for years. It literally has zero upside, and all downside.
I do not use answer's method, but there is definitely upside, IMO, and less downside than you suggest. I don't think it's different for the sake of being different; I think those employing this tipping strategy think it's superior to the standard tipping strategy.

1. The dealer experiences less variance, because variance is introduced when the amount you get tipped is dependent on who wins pots. With less variance the dealer has quicker feedback on their performance.

2. Players have easier control over how much they tip when it is a single choice of a variable amount rather than multiple binary choices.

3. It would be easier to remember to tip, at least for me. The end of the down is in between hands so nothing interesting is happening. If other people are tipping at the same time you have an easy reminder. I don't know if others struggle with this but my mind is never on tipping after I win a pot.

4. It would not be chaos at the end of downs as you suggest if everyone employed this strategy. I expect it would work quite smoothly as it does in time rake games. Has collecting time rake not been generally smooth and efficient in your experience?
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Old Yesterday, 05:04 PM   #7278
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Opportunity cost though...

They actually are losing money.

Same reason that good servers don't want to work in restaurants that pool tips or pay a flat salary.
The alternative to tipping culture is not necessarily a flat salary for everybody. A lot of businesses pay based on performance. In a poker room it should be quite easy to pay based on dealer performance using hands/down as the measuring variable as Bravo can track raked hands.

I think this would be superior incentive to perform well than relying on player tips. Old man Bob is given clear performance expectations rather than having to wonder if he doesn't make as much as 21 year old Mellissa because he's not as sexy. Having well defined expectations of your employees is a good thing rather than forcing them to figure out themselves what will rake in the most money. There are also many times where dealers can earn more money by doing things contrary to the correct procedures you have laid out for them, for example rabbit hunting.
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Old Yesterday, 05:10 PM   #7279
albedoa
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
4. It would not be chaos at the end of downs as you suggest if everyone employed this strategy. I expect it would work quite smoothly as it does in time rake games. Has collecting time rake not been generally smooth and efficient in your experience?
I respect the out-of-the-box thinking, but time rake is mandatory. A dealer can announce that it's time to pay rake. He or she can repeat the announcement, both to the table and directly to individual players. These are among the reasons why it goes smoothly.

How would that go for tipping? It would be like a bellhop waiting with his hand extended in ten directions.
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Old Yesterday, 05:28 PM   #7280
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
I respect the out-of-the-box thinking, but time rake is mandatory. A dealer can announce that it's time to pay rake. He or she can repeat the announcement, both to the table and directly to individual players. These are among the reasons why it goes smoothly.

How would that go for tipping? It would be like a bellhop waiting with his hand extended in ten directions.
Haha, yeah, that's no good. I guess the idea is that if this became standard and multiple people were doing it they can remind eachother. It's unlikely that 9 people forget to tip. I guess I wouldn't be surprised though knowing how poker players are. 6 of them are probably on their phones and the other three are watching football or checking out the waitress.

Actually, I do recall making an agreement to take care of the dealer in order for specific games to be run. For example when I've played Chinese poker tipping the dealer was mandatory and collected as part of the time rake.
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Old Yesterday, 05:36 PM   #7281
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I've used this analogy before, I think it kind of applies because both are service-related positions:

1: Not tipping a dealer is the exact same as not tipping a bartender. In a single-transaction vacuum, you are indeed stiffing them.

2: Applying that to this particular scenario of tipping after the down, what you are doing is the equivalent to sitting down at a bar, getting a drink, paying for it, and leaving no tip. Then when you are finished with the first drink, repeating that process until your evening is complete. Then at closing or whenever you leave, you leave a tip for the entire time you were there. Maybe.

This shouldn't be confused with sitting at a bar and running a tab either. Completey different from that.

In short..




But in the end, I realize I am never going to be able to change someone's mind with what I deem as reason, so I don't really get upset or anything. Most people understand the tipping economy/poker economy, but some don't. And some do and are just cheap. Those guys are the real prizes.
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Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM   #7282
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
The alternative to tipping culture is not necessarily a flat salary for everybody. A lot of businesses pay based on performance. In a poker room it should be quite easy to pay based on dealer performance using hands/down as the measuring variable as Bravo can track raked hands.

I think this would be superior incentive to perform well than relying on player tips. Old man Bob is given clear performance expectations rather than having to wonder if he doesn't make as much as 21 year old Mellissa because he's not as sexy. Having well defined expectations of your employees is a good thing rather than forcing them to figure out themselves what will rake in the most money. There are also many times where dealers can earn more money by doing things contrary to the correct procedures you have laid out for them, for example rabbit hunting.
Ok.

In Going to come deal to you and be a decent sized dick (but just small enough that I don't get fired) and deal hands as fast as possible and pressure new people into acting faster because they are messing with my hands/hour.

Or

I'm going to deal at a respectable pace, keep the game flowing, keep people happy and do my best to get hands out in an efficient manner.

Dealer A gets more money in your system. Are you ok with that?
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 PM   #7283
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Question for the community, as I saw this scenario on Saturday.

The casino has a high hand promotion of $500 every 30 minutes. In addition, there is an instant high hand of at least $50 for quads or better with a pocket pair. Dealer sits down, deals player A the high hand right at the buzzer. Player collects the money and tips the dealer $5.

Roughly 30-60 minutes later, same player, hits another high hand, and collects the instant high hand as well(probably $50). Tips the dealer a $5 right as he gets up. I'm not sure the player felt like they were under-tipping.

My question is, for one high hand, what do you think is an appropriate tip, and is that tip less, more, or the same if you hit a 2nd in the same session?
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM   #7284
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I wouldn't tip anything for a high hand, nor for a BBJ. It's probably my money to begin with that they are just giving back to me.
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Old Yesterday, 10:11 PM   #7285
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I'd like to throw a question out there to see what others think:

In regards to tournament "dealer appreciation fees", how does this change the tipping expectation when players are fortunate enough to actually cash in a tournament?

Obviously, players only cash a fraction of the time, but with this dealer add-on, players pay this every single buy-in. It's essentially a necessity to pay because it adds a significant percentage of starting chips (often an additional 50%) while it's less than an additional 10% cost of the total buy-in. It makes it exponentially more difficult to cash when choosing not to and I've found that practically 100% of players elect to do it.

I realize that hitting a huge score certainly warrants giving extra at the end, but what about small/min cashes?

Paying this "pre-tip" and not cashing repeatedly really can eat into one's ROI over time.

On top of that, the floorman is usually selling for his staff when giving out the playout slip when players are fortunate enough to finally cash, asking "if you'd like to take care of the dealers, please feel free to leave tips in the box here." It makes me feel cheap if I don't double tip, especially on small cashes.

It's come to the point where casino admin fees are already so high on these tourneys, and now with the double tipping expectation, it just makes me feel like it's too hard to make a good return and it makes me not want to play tournaments at all.

I'm somebody who likes to take care of good dealers well while I also have no problem stiffing dealers for poor service. Blanket tipping the same regardless of service is awful in my opinion for many reasons, but I digress.

My primary purpose of playing poker is for money. If I wasn't making what I deem an acceptable hourly return, I'd probably quit poker forever. I just want to do what's mutually beneficial for my bottom line while still taking care of dealers fairly who provide good/adequate service.

Should I feel guilty if choosing to not tip again when barely finishing in the money? Do dealers expect everyone who cashes to give another tip?

Thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 11:29 PM   #7286
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I don't play many tournaments, but I thought no one tipped if there was a dealer appreciation fee built in. I certainly wouldn't.
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Old Yesterday, 11:36 PM   #7287
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Assuming I'm playing at my 'home' casino, I keep track of my chip count for every down and the Dealer who pushed in/out. If I were to finish 'way up' the ladder then I would probably tip a meager sum into the pool and then take care of the Dealers who gave me the biggest boost to my stack (relative to BB) .. similar to my controversial cash tip methods. Dealers can get fired for taking in tokes outside of work, but there's nothing stopping me from taking care of them the next time I see them at a cash table.

The thing about tournament tips is that the Dealers rarely know who tipped or how much unless you are among the final table ... and even then it may be hard to spot in a casino. Unless you hand the toke to a Dealer and then they turn it in like they are supposed to it may never be known if you did or didn't. That may not be directly your issue, but I do know one thing ... If you don't pay for the Dealer 'add on' then you will make yourself known around the room!

To actually answer your question. I think a tip from a min-cash player would be unexpected and very well received .. should it ever be found out that you tipped in the first place. GL
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Old Today, 01:53 AM   #7288
Reducto
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

There's an annoying lack of transparency when it comes to the staffing fees and dealer addons. You won't know what percentage of that actually goes to dealers (it could be 100% or as low as 65% with the rest going to management and other positions) or what it equates to per down unless you're doing the work of calculating how much staffing is required based on the structure.

In the end this fee will be as low as casino management can make it and still attract a decent staff. There is a built in assumption that some tips will come in to prop that number up. One stop I go to used to be known for generous tipping so the staff fee was very low but the dealers were very well paid. As those tip numbers went down like they have everywhere the pay went way down and the staff takeout had to be increased.

If you're talking about local daily/weekly tournaments you can just ask a couple of dealers whether they make the same dealing tournaments and cash. They probably won't give you a number but many will tell you whether it's close or whether, like many big casinos, they make almost nothing doing tournaments.

If it's a tour stop, we very much hope you'll give 1-2% on a decent score. If you win a lot and don't tip, expect that word may get around and you'll be looked down on. Whether that matters is up to you.

Whether it's a fee or optional add-on generally has to do with local laws/gaming regulations. They might not be able to require the fee so they make it "optional" but high value. Just pay it and consider it part of the rake.
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