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Old 12-07-2017, 07:14 PM   #7251
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I would assume it's likely to avoid guilt. Guilt + shame = most reasons for tipping.

But the reason that's the case is because our society has so deeply ingrained the tipping economy to the point that service businesses are legally allowed to pay their workers below minimum wage, and we know if we don't tip they can easily make close to nothing
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:41 PM   #7252
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
You're probably right, and that sucks. It might be true for me too. But then it does not explain why I would leave a tip for a server standing out of sight at a restaurant I am unlikely to return to in a city I am visiting, even though I would. Is that about fear of guilt (self-shaming)? Or is it evidence that I might not be part of "most"?
Yeah, I think it is probably guilt. After I posted I realized what I would feel is probably closer to guilt in a restaurant, but maybe shame at the poker table. So it's a combination, as YGO also just posted. I hate the tipping culture though.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:35 PM   #7253
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
I think you're underestimating how much service workers are alike to human beings, in such that they'd prefer interaction over autonomy day after day. It also depends on the type of work, waiter for example -- sure, most of their interaction is forced, and if you don't plan on tipping them you should let them get to their other tables. But a dealer is stuck there either way, so I'm sure some of them appreciate a good conversation (even if the person is cheap). Not all of course, but saying the majority would prefer silence (and to a greater extent would specifically prefer silence from somebody not tipping them) is a very bold claim.

Uh, yes there was comments about dealers perceived hate. Literally his last sentence was "Im sure on the inside all the dealers hate you".

Agreed Tom.

A dealer's perspective here. If you're going to win pot after pot and not tip me $1 on a big pot then I'd just as soon you not try to engage me in any friendly conversation. That doesn't mean I want you to be rude to me either. But if you're going to insist on not tipping then I'd rather you do it quietly.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:36 AM   #7254
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I agree with Bolt - if you aren't going to tip me, don't pretend that you care about me. Definitely don't tell me how great a dealer I am as you're stiffing me! That's extra soul crushing, making me feel like all this work I put into getting good is pointless.

I do appreciate being treated like a human being, but I need to at least not feel like I made a mistake choosing this job.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:57 AM   #7255
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
Gulfstream Park, which has approximately 20 poker tables, and which generally runs at about 50% capacity for poker, did about $360,000 in gross revenue (including tournaments) for the month of July.

Gulfstream Park also did $3.8 million in slot revenue for the month.

This is consistent across all of the rooms in Florida that have both poker & slots. They generate about 10 times more revenue from slots than from poker.
Not quite.

Compare apples to apples.

*Floor space to floor space. How many machines would fit into the poker room and how much would those X amount of machines generate?

*Cost to rent the slot machines vs poker payroll

No doubt slots rake in more even with the "new" math....but maybe not 10x.
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:31 AM   #7256
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Not quite.

Compare apples to apples.

*Floor space to floor space. How many machines would fit into the poker room and how much would those X amount of machines generate?

*Cost to rent the slot machines vs poker payroll

No doubt slots rake in more even with the "new" math....but maybe not 10x.
Now I'm a casino financial exec? Thanks for the promotion!

I have no idea how many slots would fit into the Gulfstream Park poker room if they took out all of the tables. I'm guessing... 500?

I don't have a clue what it costs to rent a slot machine and I won't offer a guess here.

What I do know is that Gulfstream Park makes reports about 10x more revenue from slots than it does from poker. So does Pompano, Hialeah, Mardi Gras, and Magic City, last time I looked. And, yeah, all of those places have at least twice as much floor space dedicated to slots as compared to poker. (Actually, Hialeah's slot area might not be twice the size of their poker room but it's definitely bigger.)

Anyway, contend with "10x" all you want, but there's no denying that slots generate way more revenue than poker and for a lot less expense and headache.
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:35 AM   #7257
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

But you can't always assume more slots = more revenue. At a certain point your revenue will remain the same, regardless if you add 10 more or 100,000 more. Theres only so many people. I'm guessing most casinos already have close to their upper limit.

Youre also not addressing the fact that the poker room also brings in a lot of traffic for blackjack/slots/restaurants, though it'd be impossible to measure exactly how much. The point is poker rooms are a key part of the casino economy and its worth should not be so oversimplified.
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Old 12-08-2017, 06:33 AM   #7258
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

No I'm really not oversimplifying anything. This is the tipping containment thread and it's about tipping poker dealers. There's this idea that's held by so many who post on this thread that as poker players, they're making an enormous contribution to the casino's revenue and that they are entitled to be treated like VIP's. More perks, more rakeback, and less tipping, and if poker dealers are underpaid, let the casino figure that out, but don't increase the rake structure.

Slots and table games drive casino revenue. Poker rooms are a nice little add-on that can increase revenue in some measurable ways (rake) and some harder to measure ways (poker players might play few hands of blackjack while they're waiting for their name to be called).

This is a basic thread and I'm trying to introduce some basic logic to it. I'm not privy to the accounting department's financial data at any casino, including the one where I work. But I do have some basic common sense which seems to be missing in this discussion.

Why is it that when I go to Vegas and play poker I get about $1/hr in comps, but when my buddy goes to Vegas and plays slots he gets his room comp'd and gets offers for free shows, free meals, and free play? And it's not like he's in the high limit slot room either. This is someone who might have a $1000 gambling budget for a 3-day weekend and the casinos love him.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:05 AM   #7259
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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This is the tipping containment thread and it's about tipping poker dealers.
Correct. Let's keep it on topic.
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Old 12-08-2017, 03:28 PM   #7260
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Start up new table ... I win first 4 hands (essentially doubling up, nice) ... V wins 5th hand and tosses a white chip while loudly stating "There's your first tip of the day."

Dealer calmly says "No, I'm on my way out." At end of down I push multiple chips towards Dealer and loudly state "There's your last tip of the day." Dealer smiles and CYAs me a bit by saying "At the end of the down, like always." while looking at V.

Tipping is supposed to be an option and a reward for good service IMO. How are we to know what the Dealer/server is getting paid per hour? I know of some rooms that pay their Dealers above minimum wage and they still get filled up on tips as well.

We compare to the restaurant a lot (I do). But in a restaurant we don't sit with other people and we tip on our way out the door, typically without the server knowing the amount. In poker players can feel shamed or pressured into tipping since we are 'stuck' there just as much as the Dealer is for the down .. and beyond.

Should a restaurant patron expect any less service even if the server knows they are a chronic small tipper? When I go out and someone else pays I try to keep my eye on the tip. If it's too small for my liking I will hang back by the table (or go to the bathroom) and then put some cash on it on my way out. Should my group be treated differently if the server knows my Grandmother is paying (bad tipper) or if I'm paying the bill?

The arguments are there on both (every) sides and will never end. I think Dealers 'make out' better than they might otherwise due to the 'per hand' culture the poker world has created ... Seat Zero might not make a lot of money at times, but it never loses money either! GL
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Old 12-10-2017, 02:22 AM   #7261
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Can never understand why some people take it upon themselves to tip after a down. It is just another example in life in general of people messing with the known process that is pretty much standard operating procedure everywhere in the US. It reminds me a lot of 'nice' drivers that wave other cars out that are waiting for the moron with the right of way to do what he is supposed to do, which is just ****ing go. Just frigging tip them or don't.


And taking it a step further, here is why this doesn't work: Because if everyone did what you are doing, society couldn't function. If everyone tipped after a down, what would that look like? Well first of all it would look pretty stupid. Dealer pushes out of the box, but OH WAIT, everyone starts tipping him after the down now, all at once. Some throw 1, some throw 2, some throw 3, some obv throw 0. All these chips are just flying at dealer who is pushing out while dealer pushing in is standing there waiting for other dealer to gather up all his chips he just got in one fell swoop. "Thank you sir, thank you ma'am, and thank you sir, and thank you, and thank you sir."

It's just another example of people making up their own stupid rules after rules have already been in place for years. It literally has zero upside, and all downside.
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:12 AM   #7262
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

27, you missed the part where half the table suddenly has to go to the bathroom or make a phone call right before the push goes through.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:37 AM   #7263
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

just tip every dealer $200 come Christmas time and be done with it. most of them will actually think you're an amazing tipper even though you've been stiffing them all year
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:58 AM   #7264
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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27, you missed the part where half the table suddenly has to go to the bathroom or make a phone call right before the push goes through.
Of course. "I'll get you next time dealer..."
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:23 AM   #7265
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
?
.. Seat Zero might not make a lot of money at times, but it never loses money either! GL
Opportunity cost though...

They actually are losing money.

Same reason that good servers don't want to work in restaurants that pool tips or pay a flat salary.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:26 AM   #7266
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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The arguments are there on both (every) sides and will never end.
I'd love to get into how society should never consider alternative options or it will fail and how stupid we all are that don't fall into line ... but I've got to go bottle some water.

At the beginning of the post it was an established 'process', but towards the end it was a 'rule'. When someone is grasping at harsher words to get their point across that's when you know that they have a weak argument and have to try to embellish it. GL
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:03 AM   #7267
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

There's a difference between exploring alternative options and unilaterally practicing your own theories or whatever without telling anyone wtf is going on.

There is a restaurant near me whose menu explains that their prices are higher than comparable establishments because they are experimenting with paying their staff actual wages. That's called transparency.

A surprise bulk tip at the end of the down is neither explorative nor scalable nor transparent. 27offsuit laid out the reasons why.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:04 AM   #7268
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Gee, I hope the harshness of my words met your standard of consistency.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:37 PM   #7269
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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There's a difference between exploring alternative options and unilaterally practicing your own theories or whatever without telling anyone wtf is going on.

There is a restaurant near me whose menu explains that their prices are higher than comparable establishments because they are experimenting with paying their staff actual wages. That's called transparency.

A surprise bulk tip at the end of the down is neither explorative nor scalable nor transparent. 27offsuit laid out the reasons why.
I'll confess I tapped this thread by accident so I don't know the full context but this post is full of win.

Tipping is an unspoken social contract that I grudgingly adhere to because I'm not going to screw people out of what they expect.

But unless someone has the power to change the behavior of multiple people, all they do by going rogue is **** over the powerless.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:58 PM   #7270
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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A surprise bulk tip at the end of the down is neither explorative nor scalable nor transparent. 27offsuit laid out the reasons why.
1) It's not a surprise if the two parties that matter (Dealer and Player) know about it.
2) Anything that's not 'normal' is explorative by nature. It's certainly possible that others have tried it in the past and found it to be less desirable.
3) Scalable is an interesting one. Rooms have moved away from Dealers collecting 'time' probably because it takes time but more importantly they make more rake on a per hand basis in most games. Both rake and tip handling when done on a smaller scale definitely seems more efficient.
4) Transparent is similar to surprise, but point taken that multiple surprises at the same time could muddy the transparency of each event. (Thus the topic of how many presents should you give your kids pops up.)

I didn't find your words harsh. Although, as indicated above, the two parties that matter actually do know wtf is going on. You kept your comments on the topic without attacking me personally. If a Dealer that has just felted me 2-3 times during a down is offended by me toking them when they push out then I guess we do need to worry about society. (Yes, I know that the Dealer personally didn't have anything to do with the felting.)

As far as the bathroom/phone call comment .. I will sometimes go to a Dealer at their next table, or even pull them from break if I've missed their push.

I've never suggested that 'my' system is perfect and should become the norm, only that it's what I do. Nor do I suggest that Dealer's would be better off if there were a bunch of 'mes' running around. I didn't have to put this out 'here', but this is a forum for discussion. I understand that a person's income can be a hot button of emotion, but to suggest that I should either (frigging) conform or not partake at all seems to be a bit shortsighted as well. GL
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:10 PM   #7271
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

answer,

Just to be clear, my original post was not directed specifically at you, it was directed at people that do things that you are doing, which I find to be dumb.

I stand by my statement of "Just frigging tip or don't." Reinventing the wheel is a you problem.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:12 PM   #7272
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

answer,

Serious question: Why do you do that? Does it serve some benefit to you or the dealer?
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:42 PM   #7273
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

The answers are probably all within this thread somewhere already, so I hope I can not contradict myself here now.

1) I play/win LOTS of hands, so tipping $1 per hand would have a larger impact on my stack than most players. Yes, I know that this isn't the Dealer's 'problem'.

2) Even though it's not 'fair' and I know the Dealer really doesn't have control, I tip based on commission of profit during a period of time. If do well, the Dealer does well. The more I do well, the greater the % of profit handed over. I do take into consideration if I made a questionable call or two and/or if the Dealer has hit me with the deck.

3) To a lesser scale, the chips left in my stack can double whereas those that have left my stack can't. Sure, $1 is only .5% of my stack, but after an hour it could've represented 10% of my stack at $200.

So I 'force' the Dealer to join Team Answer20 and award based on our results. When I do well I hope that the Dealers do better than 'normal', when we don't do so well they get a consolation prize even when I bust or lose during the down.

I my (twisted) mind I'm combining both the 'normal' hand to hand tip and BBJ tip ideas that have been discussed here as well. Why would a Dealer 'expect' more from a large pot or BBJ hand if they would rather we all 'submit' to the $1/hand. Certainly big pots happen much more often, but are they really that much different than an expectation from a BBJ?

I wish I had more time right now, but there are a few nuggets here to taste ... GL
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:49 PM   #7274
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

That is actually exactly what I assumed would be your reasoning. No basis whatsoever on ability of the person providing you a service, just results-oriented tipping.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:31 PM   #7275
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Isn't the normal system results based? Win a hand, pay the bill (tip). In theory the better Dealers should get more hands in per down, thus more tips. But from a player's viewpoint it could be seen as deemed necessary via a result. One could go so far as to deem it a form of (optional) tax.

I am human, I can skew my choices based on all aspects that the Dealer brings to the table, including my results and their ability to run (and control) the game/table. Thus I get the whole down to form a conclusion and act accordingly ... same as I do at a restaurant. (Do we still tip the waitress even if we know the kitchen was the problem with our meal? Some do, some don't.)

I'd like to think I'm 'better' than I used to be. I (significantly) tipped a Dealer in Vegas even though I didn't win a hand the whole down. A different player crushed the down and didn't tip once .. the Dealer about fell out of the chair getting up. Tooting the horn a bit yes, but have you ever seen a player tip a Dealer when they lost a hand ... other than the scraps of white chips left behind after a 2/5 felting? Even though that 'door' is open to any player of course, it's built into my system. I try to tip the Dealer even if I've had a losing down but there's always a chance that a bigger door was opened along the way.

I'm not going to say I'm perfect. In fact I'm going to say I'm too moody when I really shouldn't be for playing this game as long as I have, but I do try to remember the bigger picture. GL
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