I'll risk infraction points (if it doesn't appear to be in the sticky rules) by following this post with a vid that was posted earlier, but deleted, from Reservoir Dogs. It's comical, but it makes valid points - so I don't know why it was deleted? Mods?

Concerning your first question (about why establishment doesn't change to compensate its employees), the answer is that the establishment doesn't change because they have not yet been forced to do so (by the market. I'm a libertarian and abhor the idea of seeking gov't intervention in matters such as this). They've been getting away w/ paying their employees next to nothing for years and loving it. And yes, tipping is a form of incentive-based pay, but, as you suggested earlier there are better and more efficient/effective forms of incentive-based pay ie profit sharing.

Personally, I am very uncomfortable being a non-tipper. I know that by not tipping while tipping remains customary, I am potentially responsible for someone making less than their expected wage, thus potentially shaking their financial situation. I am very uncomfortable with that, and I don't like having to be the person to do it, but I don't allow my emotions to override my logic because bad things happen when you do (it's in all the history books). Change has to begin somewhere and you have to be the change you want to see in the world. Growing pains with change are just a fact of life.

You're right when you say tipping at restaurants and casinos are one in the same, in principle. But pragmatically, tipping at a restaurant in which you're a regular is more advantageous imo. At a restaurant there's more likelihood for sabotage by the employees ie them ****ing w/ your food.

EDIT
Oldpokerguy, thank you for your posts. I think they've instigated some very constructive discussion.

There is one big difference a waitress gets about $2.00 an hour while dealers at least here in Tunica get $7-8 an hour. Granted even that is not a large amount of money but do you tip the clerk at a fast food restaurant that rings you order up and hands you your food they make the same wage or a clerk and sack boy at the grocery? I used to tip BJ dealers when they would either shuffle up early or deal a few more hands when I requested but now they refuse to help me out so why should I tip them anymore? I do tip poker dealers who do a very good job but not dealers who are slow or make too many mistakes. There are many minimum wage jobs that people don't even think about tipping. Are customers supposed to subsidize all minimum wage jobs? If not how do you pick and chose which to tip?

Thanks, Kowboy. I agree, and admire, that we sometimes have to do uncomfortable things to either make a point, or try to lead the way.

I play only recreationally now, and not nearly as often as I'd like to. Also, being a former dealer, I know it would be too difficult for me to withhold tipping, for the most part. However, I have not tipped a dealer when I think they are doing a terrible job due to inattention. I don't care what you did last night, and I really don't care how much you won or lost on a sports bet. Deal the game correctly and efficiently, please. Also, if a dealer does not acknowledge a tip, and especially doesn't say thank you, I have withheld a future tip from them.

These are good points in the discussion. I think clearly the status quo, or "custom" prevails most of the time, sometimes for no really good reason, I suppose. I didn't realize that waitresses were actually paid less than minimum wage by the establishment. Is there any safety net for them if they don't actually average the minimum wage when adding in their tips? Perhaps that never actually occurs, but how did they become immune to the "minimum" that the government dictates?

Anyway, I think the wage structure for dealers has somehow evolved into what it is today. As for other minimum wage occupations, I think it's realistic to say that society in general has deemed certain occupations to be only worthy of a certain income level. If the owner of a convenience store is comfortable with the level of employees they will attract at minimum wage, I guess that's their business. I'm not sure I could sleep well at night knowing I left my store in the hands of some of those I encounter at 5:00 am when I stop in for my coffee on the way to work

I certainly wouldn't want to think many of them are dealing my cards to me at the local poker room. I think the employment market pretty well establishes the level of talent in each occupation, based on the respective income provided to that position. I don't want my poker dealers to be minimum wage earners. How they receive their higher salary is certainly open for discussion and review, in my mind.

I wish we could eventually do away with all the uncertainties in prices and costs. I don't get to negotiate with the store when I'm buying a gallon of milk. Why do we have to go through a 5 hour ordeal when buying a car? Because of competition? There's most certainly more competion in the sales of milk than cars, isn't there?

It would be nice one day to have everyone paid in full by their employer, and that cost of employees factored into the cost of the product. Tipping then would be left to the exceptional situation, or Christmas

Supply and demand drive prices. Supply and demand are always changing, therefore prices are always changing. Prices will always change. All else is fantasy, or a controlled market (which you don't want, even if you think you do).

A Food Server - They have to work each table individually, and each table is a different experience. It's up to them to give great service to eat table. If I do not tip them well, I can definitely count on the chance I may get worse service from ANY other server the next time I come into the same restaurant, since servers let other servers know who gives ****ty tips. Coming from experience in working in the food service field previously, customer tipping stories are definitely shared. Being a ****ty tipper will almost ensure that you get worse service on the next visit. Being an ******* but also being a good tipper will probably get you even better service the next time. Another interesting fact is that my small tip to them is going to be a bigger % of what they could have made compared to tipping a dealer $1. If a food server does a ****ty job for me and everyone else gets the same server but I am only getting ****ty treatment for my tipping, then her attitude won't affect her other tables.

A Dealer - If I don't tip them, and they start to give me ****ty service, it's going to affect them in 1 of 2 ways: A.) They start dealing worse and the rest of the table is affected, thereby created a huge ripple affect and making their tips worse overall because 1 person didn't give them a dollar, or B.) They pitch my cards or deal to me differently than everyone else, and I talk to the floor about it, whom I WILL tip.

It's not beneficial for dealers to do anything different than their best when dealer because it will affect how they get tips from other players, unlike a food server. Also, say for instance I don't tip a dealer $1. That dealer goes home with $99. Sorry I made your salary decrease by 1%. If you were a food server and I didn't tip you $5 and you leave work with 95 dollars, sorry I decrease your salary by FIVE TIMES AS MUCH AS WHAT A DEALER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN.

Going out to dinner is not a way for me to make money, or in investment (maybe a taste/health investment, but thats another thread). When I go play poker I play to make money, and part of making money is maximizing every dollar. Saving an extra $2-$5 dollars an hour is very important to me, and I am going to choose myself over a random dealer.

If I don't tip a dealer, I should be getting the same exact service as if I was, because it's going to hurt them a lot more than it will hurt me, since their overall results will suffer by taking it out on the table with bad dealing. If I don't tip a food server/porter/bartender, I run the risk of not getting good service, worrying about what I ingest, or actually ever getting what I wanted. HUGE difference.

Keep justifying being a non-tipping reg.....people like u that come with different theory's on how not tipping is cool u should just call your friends and play at home

Justify tipping for us, imo.


Preview: "He tosses the tip, as is tradition."

Respectfully, after thinking about this, I wonder what your motivation for tipping is? It seems your motivation is obligatory feelings in that you were tipped, so you ought to tip? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Feelings of obligation are unwarranted motives for tipping because you don't owe anyone anything. Just because someone gives something to you doesn't mean you owe that person something in return, unless you agreed to giving something in return beforehand. And as for tradition, to hell with tradition for obvious reasons.

Now, if you tip simply because you want to, then that is perfectly reasonable.

I think my personal motivation for tipping is first, I know that's it's an integral way for the dealer's to receive a decent wage. It is the system in place at this time for them to receive the wage that they expected when they took the job. Not tipping myself, while it wouldn't have a great effect on their overall income, isn't the point, in my opinion. It's whether everyone should stop tipping for the most part. If that happenned, the dealers' income would plummet, and they would most likely seek other employment.

As players, we would be left with generally incompetant dealers, or the casinos would step forward and pay dealers an acceptable wage, and we would pay those costs, as they would be passed on, of course. As I've said before, there may be a much better way of paying dealers than the current system, but simply lowering the income of dealers would have a negative effect on the players, I think.

I also tip because I feel I should "pay my fair share", in effect. I don't think dealers make an exorbitant income. A nice income, for sure. But not way out of line for their skill level. If one feels that dealers are way overpaid, then not tipping is a way to deal with that issue. If one feels that dealers are paid about right, but don't want to shoulder their share of that payroll system, then they are, in essence, unfairly transferring that burden to others.

I believe that it's actually not a bad system of controlling the quality of dealers. I will withhold tips from dealers who, in my opinion, are not doing their job well. That way, they will earn less, to the best of my ability to control things.

I don't think I tip out of guilt or anything like that. I tip out of a knowledge that it is how they currently receive a large portion of their income, and I feel I should shoulder my share of that system, until the system is changed.

kowboy, I hope you're setting aside all the money you're not tipping so that you can give the money back once you win your crusade.

You're what economists call a Free Rider. You don't put into the system, but you still reap the benefits. You take a penny, but you don't share a penny. You see an "honor jar" and scoff, "SUCKERS!" Or in your own words:

?

Who do I owe?

I was unfamiliar with the free rider term, so thank you for educating me. However, upon looking up its definition, you'll see you've used the term erroneously in that the system doesn't collapse when everyone follows suit. Rather, management is forced to pay their employees' wages (as it should) instead of the players. This will likely mean increased rake, which is just fine.

EDIT
So you're saying I feel entitled to someone dealing cards to me for free? If I did, in reality, I wouldn't agree to paying the rake.

Exactly. Or, they could actually communicate w/ their employers and demand a greater wage from them directly, as you suggest below.

I disagree with the last line, especially if the dealers received incentive-based pay. But you do inspire a good question: Would the possible decreased skill level of a dealer paid only a flat wage, overall, hurt the bottom line of the players vs dealers receiving tips? We'd have to look at card rooms in which tips aren't customary/allowed for the answer. I don't know much about these or overseas card rooms, but "No" would be my guess from what I've read from British posters itt.

If you believe it to be optimal, then you should obviously support it. If you believe better options exist (as you've alluded), then those options ought to be explored, minimally.


It won't change if all players were to follow this line of thinking. It really all comes down to whether or not you believe the tipping system to be optimal. You don't owe anyone anything.

Ok here is a question for dealers just what do you consider a fair hourly wage if casinos were to change from current system to a non-tip hourly wage?

Nobody is going to answer, because then they would have to give you an idea of how much they take home under the current system.

I'm obviously not a dealer, but, if I was (in reality, I have a legit interest in temporarily becoming one), I would ideally seek a wage that was based on percentages of the profits that, in absolute terms, would be comparable or better than expected earnings for the same job elsewhere.

^That way I'm really a part of the team and really have a vested interest in ensuring the customers are happy and that the card room is running optimally ie I would clean off the table if it was dirty to attract customers - how many dealers have you seen do that? I haven't seen any. That's just one example.

The only problem I see is what is considered good for tipping. It is not set in stone. Is the $1 I tip adequate or should I tip $2 or more? Free rider I think is hard to justify because there is no hard rule for tipping. What is the actual cost? There is none at all. In some areas casinos pay $7-8 an hour. Now is that less than adequate? Probably for the area, but how much should the table end up tipping the dealer? It would probably be more than what the house would end up paying the dealer straight up. This is probably much more than what an increased rake would be.

If you tip a $1 for small pots that could really kill your chance at winning anything depending on the game. Might as well just buy in and split it. Half to the rake and half to the dealer.

What should someone tip? If the pot is small should the player still tip? If the pot is big should the player tip more? If a tournament sets aside dealer tips, should the player tip when they win?

I know they probably won't for the reason you gave. But here in Tunica full-time dealers make from $45,000 to $70,000 with tips depending on the house they work in and their speed. That is one reason they have trouble hiring floors since they only get $16.00 to $22.00 per hour depending on experience and duel-rates get between $16-$18.00 when flooring. And here it is against company rules for floors to accept tips, floors have been fired for accepting tips. We can't forget the free health insurance they get and company clinics that if they use it there is no charge while most jobs do not include free medical or company clinics unless you are in a union. Harrah's, Horseshoe, Roadhouse and Hollywood have free company clinics staffed with a nurse practitioner.

As you can probably tell from my previous posts, I don't really have a dog in this fight, as they say in some parts of the country

I do, however, think it's an interesting discussion of economics. Hopefully, giving my own personal information will not offend any current dealers, who may want a discussion of their incomes kept out of the public domain. As I said, I dealt full time in Las Vegas back in the middle to late '70's (I was only 12 yrs old at the time, and lied about my age). I can't remember much from those days, unfortunately.

I dealt at an indian-owned casino in the Phoenix area in the middle '90's. It had just opened, and was the only game in town at that time. Business was booming, and my work was slowing down in the aerospace industry, so I went out there to talk to the manager about a part-time job. He said he had never considered hiring a part-time dealer, but it was an interesting idea to him, since I was only wanting to deal on Saturday and Sunday, his busiest times, of course. He then wouldn't have to worry about me on his staff during the week. It seemed like a win-win situation to both of us.

A funny aside, if you will. He said he wanted me to "audition", so he tapped out a regular dealer in a live 7-card stud game, and asked me to deal a few hands while he watched over me like a hawk. I hadn't dealt in almost 15 years, and was a little nervous. The first hand I dealt, the pot kept growing and growing. Eventually, a full house lost to 4 of a kind. He said one hand would be enough, and he hired me on the spot.

Anyway, the house dealt 7-card stud, $1-$5 limit. It had a .50c ante, so lots of .50c tips were common. They also had $3-$6 and $4-$8 limit hold-em. Occasionally, $10-$20 limit hold-em. The room had about 20 tables, and was packed the entire weekend. It was common to deal 4 or 5 tables, then have a 30 minute break. So, I would actually deal about 6 1/2 hours out of my 8 hour shift. I kept accurate records for myself, and over a 22 month period, I averaged $18.50 per hour in tips. I think the room paid me around the prevailing minimum wage at the time, around $4.25 per hour or so. So, in 1995 or thereabouts, I made right at $20 per hour, of which some 75% or so was in cash. This was a period before the IRS had what I now hear are rather strict taxing agreements with the casinos. I was on my own to report my income, and for the life of me, I can't remember many details about that part of the arrangement.

You guys can do all your manipulations with the numbers, factoring in inflation and such. Also, if I was employed a full 40 hours during the week, my tips would most likely be less, as the weekends, of course, were the main money earners.

I don't really know what any of this actually means to this discussion, but I would be surprised if an adequately qualified dealer corps couldn't be established with a flat hourly income, without tips of any kind being allowed, for somewhere around $20 per hour today. I think it would be considered a pretty good job by most, and with proper supervision and oversight by room management, the poor performers would be weeded out, and that income level would be sufficient to sustain a well qualified and competant staff. I would also be surprised if the current dealer position in most cardrooms doesn't provide higher income than that, so current decent dealers most likely won't think too fondly of this idea.

Now, if the rooms were to ban tipping and pay their dealers an average of $20 per hour (less for beginners, more for seasoned veterans), what would the rake increase need to be to cover that change? I'm not sure, but I'm thinking less than a dollar per hand.

Maybe this is the way things should progress. When I open my casino next year, I think I'll give this idea a try

I remember tipping quarters and watching them go into the dealer's front pocket. Ahh, the good old days. [Get off my lawn!]

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What surprises me most about this thread is the damage that the "angry" dealers do to anyone on the fence about their tipping model; and how those same "angry" dealers react to those people.

To the "angry" dealers in this thread: You're hurting your case.

Most of us in this thread are good tippers, great even, I suspect -- but you're not doing a good job of fostering that sense of goodwill that keeps us being good tippers.

Earlier in this thread one of the "angry" dealers couldn't believe that I'd do my best work no matter how much I was getting paid -- he was adamant that I'd just slack off if I wasn't getting top dollar for a project, because, you know, that's his terrible entitled work ethic, and he projects it on others.

There are people in this world who always do their best. I hope at least a few of them are still poker dealers.

Actually, milk is one of the least competitive markets you could find. In reality, it's a highly controlled market. Milk prices are astronomically high here in the US, far out of line. Learn about milk boards - alliances between industry, farmers and government. They exist to put artificial floors under milk prices.

Do a little casual searching, and I guarantee that it will open your eyes - we're getting reamed on milk!

An earlier poster asked what would be the wage if casino paid? If your not making 35 a hr you wont be around long, in my state the best make alot more. Remember you get what you pay for.

A Free Rider situation doesn't need to be an unworkable system destined to collapse. Hell, the "honor jar" I alluded to is situation with a Free Rider problem. Public health care would be another (you think a homeless man in Canada is paying his share of health care costs? He still gets free health care.) The idea here is that the going rates are dealer wages of $20 an hour. You've decided that they only deserve $8 an hour. I'm sorry, but its just not an $8/hr job.

One of the biggest benefits of this tiping system is that you can CHOOSE to tip more to the young dealer that is dealing 22 hands a down, and you can CHOOSE not to tip at all to the old dealer than converses with the players while in the box and gets 10-12 hands out per hour. And the dealers know that if they go faster they'll earn more, not just from people extra-appreciate of their speed, skill, and professionalism, but also because more hands means more opportunities to tip. Most dealers feel pretty secure in their job in that they know they won't get fired so long as they show up to work, don't talk back to their bosses, and don't curse at the players, they'll still have a job. I want a system where dealers are incentivized to work faster and more professionally.

But you've decided, screw all that, dealers don't deserve $20/hr, they deserve $8, and I'm going to take what money I can from them because the house is giving me that option.

America might be the world's first and best meritocracy. You rise as high as your skill and hard work take you. The tipping culture that we have is a grand extension of that.

Take a look at European card rooms for a case study.

And, thankfully, you don't decide prices individually - the market does as a whole.