Not sure i understand your reasoning here. I have come to realize that decent players sacrifice an immense amount of BBJ equity because we don't do stuff like limp/call for 1/10 stack with 75 UTG hoping to get lucky. Of course we make it up 100 times over in non-BBJ equity. Point is, you might win an immense amount of money, and that possibility has value.

Does your room raid the BBJ to pay for non-BBJ stuff?

Mine do. It's a "player promotional fund", and it pays for all sorts of promotions, including (but not limited to) tournament overlays.

I replied to this once and it got deleted, btw.

I don't think the system is going to change anytime soon. Casinos would have to raise the rake and the players would dislike being forced to pay more per hand rather than having the option to tip us.

For what?

It only comes across as "unprofessional" if you're one of the non-tippers I'm not going out of my way to do anything for. Once again, I'm not working for free for anyone.

My "superiors" gives us ideas on things to do to non-tippers lol. They aren't there to help these people out. They were dealers at one point too. They
became dual rates/floors because they hated the players so much that it was worth the 50% pay cut to not have to deal with whiney, nitty non-tippers anymore. You knew that, right? Floors take up to a 50% PAY CUT by CHOICE. Go ahead and tell them about how one of the dealers wouldn't get a waitress for you, or how you couldn't get an extra wash of the cards. We'll laugh about it on break.

Once you move beyond floors to shift supervisors. Their concern is what the floors are doing. Go beyond that to poker room manager. Their concern is that everything is run properly and the room is turning a profit. You really think any of them could care less about something said on an internet message board?

Your scenario of showing this to my superiors, and expecting some "punishment," is pretty amusing.

No, I'm not telling you, or anyone, on some message board where I work.

It's difficult for me to understand why someone, or anybody, would remain in a job they felt they weren't being paid properly for. If dealing is so bad one needs to antagonize a player(s) by not doing the job they hired on to do, not pushing pots, not getting cards to them, etc., they should seriously reconsider their options. Is it common to put these work philosophies and mission statements onto your job application and resume?

If a prospective employer ever asked what would you do with a rude or difficult client, and I responded how I would go about screwing him with lower than expected service and later me and my superiors will laugh about it, I doubt I'd get to the next level of the interview.

I wonder if McD employees have these same feelings? Maybe we should tip the drive-thru gal for doing her job?

I don't believe you are a dealer. But if you are a dealer:

Your superiors will not do anything about your comments on this tread. Then why won't you say where you work?


Tell us. You will get reported and then you and your superiors can have a good laugh at us.

Trying to figure out where (general location) he deals.

Would have to be a place not pooling tips.
Would have to be a place that deals mostly Limit (right, he gets out 40 hands/hr at NL)
Not California.
Any guesses?

I can't wait to get in a poker room again so I can tip appropriately....

"Casinos would have to raise the rake" is a bogus argument.

It implies there's a causal relationship between dealer pay and rake charge.

There isn't.


Cardrooms will charge rake based on what they believe will maximize their revenue.

It doesn't matter if they're paying dealers $50 an hour or if the dealers work for free.

The cardroom is going to charge the rake that maximizes revenue.



Likewise, the flipside is also true. Cardrooms aren't paying dealers based on how much rake they collect. The cardroom could be raking $50 an hour off the table or $500 an hour off the table.

Either way, they're going to pay the dealers the least amount they have to find adequate staffing.


.

Last I checked, your hourly was completely dependent on how fast I run the game.

Has that suddenly changed?

No? Good luck then.


q/q

So is your hourly.

Generally, yes.

But it also depends.

If, by providing extra service, I make my game profitable for freerolling professionals, who in turn come into my room and convince my customers to cut my pay, then I'm better off not providing that extra service to those particular players.

That's the point we're at, I think.

I wish it were different, but there are just too many wannabe-pro's who just don't get it. They think they're entitled to a freeroll, and then they think they're entitled not only to everything on the table, but also to anything *someone else* might have tipped the staff. Where does it end? The unbelievable greed of these players will ultimately be their undoing, because they are making themselves very unwelcome in most rooms.


q/q

on edit: I would also add that ALL of my recreational players are better off without nitty professional players in the room. So reducing services that allow these pros to make a living by taking money off my tables is *decidedly* in the long-term interest of my games.

OMG, this is SO right! I started tipping less too. LOVE all the "free" money now.

"Hey, I just bought this taxi ride with the tips I DIDN'T give today!"

Love it!

They still have a good job. It's a recession dealers, get USED to it!

In perfect competition, your arguments are correct, but the casino business isn't perfect competition. Generally the max rake is set by statute, and generally they charge whatever the statute allows. There's certainly little need to compete on price, because AFAIK there's no locale where someone can simply open a poker room next door without very high barriers to entry.

I believe you're misusing the term 'freerolling' here. Tipping is still a voluntary action whether dealers like it or not. It is voluntary, not mandatory nor is it to be expected (entitled) either. It could very well be the service industry as a whole believes tipping to have crossed over to an entitlement or payroll subsidy nowadays, but in the past, tipping was over and above the expected price of a service, or for better service. It's akin to the restaurant menu which states, "Mandatory gratitude of 20% will be applied to tables with more than 6 people, thank you."

"Mandatory"? "Gratitude"? WTF?

When one discusses a service-based job, it is simply that, a service. Service is expected to at least an average expectation. If it falls below average, then in most serviced-based industries, they are released as they impact the bottom line of a business.

What we have here does not follow the expected line of service-based business. The rake is taken regardless of the less than stellar service-oriented dealers, so management really has no dog in the fight. They make their $XXX per table.

A player isn't freerolling anything when they come into a casino or poker room. They're not going to be turned away at the door by security. They're not going to be entered into a facial recognition system, taken into a back room to have their hands hammered.

I have asked for the Maitre d' during a dinner service to inform him we haven't seen a server for 45 minutes and we are in need of our appetizers, plates, drinks, or better yet, we requested silverware more than 10 minutes ago. And will not be authorizing more than 10% gratuity on our ticket or will have the CC company dispute the whole charge. They comply with apologies.

Any service industry should have an expected level of service whether they receive tips from one individual or not. When you "slow the hands per hour" down", you also provide a disservice to those of us who tip you on the same table. When you make some player reach and scrub for his pot and we have to wait for you to deal until he has his chips in his area, you provide a disservice to the rest of us.

The fact you say players are "freerolling" on you speaks volumes. Perhaps the service industry is not for you? Service work is just that, provide a service - first.

* And I do tip every pot/chop and will graciously over tip exceptional service.

That's an interesting point, namely that loose-passive ("bad") players get a lot more BBJ equity.

Of course I'm a donkey so would either muck 57s UTG or open with a blocking bet.

You mention "freeroll" twice?

I think I'm done trying to figure out where devil works, I want to play in your room where they obviously must not take rake.

Or is this just some point your trying to make? I guess saying the people who pay $6 ($4 rake + $1 BBJP + $1 tip) per hand are fine while the people who pay $5 ($4 rake + $1BBJP w no tip) are freerolling.


FYP. Where is that one guy who likes to call out the players/tippers on their BS reasoning for doing certain things. I know that usually only works one way but come on. No love for this?

The only thing amusing here is how much of a coward you are.

Oh well. I guess some other poor soul will have to deal with whatever you want to watch on TV and no washed cards for another day. OMG

lol first you were so angry about what I said that you were trying to stalk me at my job (creepy), now you're downlplaying the little shots I take at non-tippers. Make up your mind.

You're really narrowing it down. Good job.

It doesn't matter if they do. McDonald's employees cannot accept tips.

I've never complained that I'm not paid properly at my job. I've stated quite a few times that I enjoy my work. You're 0 for 2 on this post.

I really couldn't care less what you believe.

So where would the money come from, if not from the players, to give us (for example) a $20 an hour raise?

This has been answered.

Casinos take whatever rake they think they can get away with - whatever the market will bear or whatever they're legally able to take. If you think the current rake taken is somehow only allowing the casino to break even on floor space, I've got a bridge to sell you.

If tipping poker dealers were outlawed (for whatever reason), the house would STILL take as much rake as they could per hand -- just like they do now.

They play enough limit in CA; I don't think you can rule out CA since the dealers do go from table to table.

While it might help if the casino this person worked for was made aware of his particular attitude, there's not much point in trying to "find the guy". He's angry, it may be in a small casino where the locals don't tip at all, he feels that "bribing him to deal better" is acceptable, maybe everyone at that casino thinks that. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference if his bosses knew. Who cares? If you find someone like this, make a big show of "not tipping" them and explain to them "why" you're not tipping them.

There's so much "tip me" mentality in CA (not just the dealers) that it was an influence in why I left the scene there, that and the absurd rake and... just mass corruption, overall. "Some" dealers flashing my cards to their buddies even when I overtip in hopes they will stop it (did I really think they would?); the floor not caring because they get "tipped" not to care. I'm not going to list it all. Go to Commerce and play there regularly (not just tournament time, when they're all on "good behavior") and tell me that nothing sleazy is going on. I'm not saying every table, I'm not, but enough to make you sick. Find out yourself. And this is what "tipping" allows to happen. I moved to Atlantic City. It's much, much better, since floorpeople can't be tipped, yet; and the dealers don't want to risk going to jail because there are people watching them who also oversee the huge table games they have there, so cheating (like flashing cards) is a pretty big no-no there (though AC itself is a dump the casinos care little about).

You know, I won about $425 bucks in some promotion in a cardroom in CA and everyone, from the floor to the people running the boards to some dealers I knew for some time, is giving me that "but why aren't you tipping me?" look (even days later after they find out). The sad faces. Oh, please, I don't live to feed you. I mean, mother of pearl! I win a small promotion (yay) and they want me to give 3/4 of it away in tips and q/q is talking about not liking communism? You know what? I don't like it either when I have to share my money with you as you make "a great effort and show" of shoving 10 one dollar chips to me in several "sweeping" movements to imply, "Hey, what a huge pot I'm pushing you; how about a tip? No man, I'm not going to tip you 10% everytime I win. How can "I" win other than oatmeal money if I do that?

I also love when a dealer pushes you a small pot, and witholds a few chips that he throws you a few seconds later. Hey, thank you for not stealing those chips; here's a tip, right? That's the idea, right? Man, I do not need that sort of BS from a dealer during the game.

Now, can you imagine the corruption you enable when you allow floor people to be tipped? CA is a great example. An ambitious prosecutor could make a name for himself there, and it would be good to shake up the industry over there.

Tipping a person that gives you "one on one service", a cabbie, a waiter/waitress, heck, a doctor, "that" I can see and understand. But allowing tipping where there is competition for tips leads to the types of attitudes and general WTFness that we all see. Dealers come into a game all friendly (which is okay) but then they overdo it to the degree (by blabbing, or selling themselves, to the table for 15 minutes straight) that everyone in the game is now uncomfortable and knows they are "expected to tip". Do you know how that can tighten up what was a really good game. That really messes up some good games. Thank you!

There's a reason for the saying "Shut up and deal". Not that it's meant in a bad way, I never say that anyway, just that you should realize how you are negatively impacting the game by becoming the star of the show while begging for tips. People come to play poker and they get "immersed" in it. I don't need you taking them out of that frame of mind by constantly annoying them with reminders to tip you.

Here's a tip for all casinos. Pay your dealers a good wage (40-60k a year), give them good benefits and health insurance, and outlaw tipping because it's ruining your cardroom (and that impacts your table games as well--if you don't know how, then you shouldn't be running a casino--I mean, I left a state for it, and because of the ramifications--corruption--so figure it out).

Tipping creates more problems than it solves. It leads to a "gimme society", at least in the casinos, and the look in some dealers' eyes is nauseating me and disturbing the other players. I mean, they don't want a dollar tip; they're trying to influence you and other players to give more, much more; hey, just shove them your stack. And some players, in the long run, do just that. And I don't need that added BS in my game.

Above post: change should be


But allowing tipping where there is competition for tips (and where tips account for "most" of a person's income, rather than being a supplement to it) leads to the types of attitudes and general WTFness that we all see.



I tried to edit but was too late.

It has been said that CA and NV dealers make at least state minimum wage which is $8/hr.

Right now, I'm in Vegas for the summer and I play at the Bellagio which is currently tied with a few other casinos which has the lowest rake on the strip with a $4+0 rake.

I would much rather play with a $5+0 rake if it meant that there would be no tipping and dealers would get a flat $20/hr rate.

I know back home in miami/ft lauderdale, the cheapest place is $5+1 rake (and most are going to $5+2).. tell me why we are expected to tip when so much is being taken off the table in a single hour.

Sorry must be contagious or something. like how you said bringing this up to your superiors would be the joke of the day and get lols all around. Still, you will not tell us because we would be "stalking" you by trying to have your superiors read it..



Which one is it? Entertainment for the day or possibly your job? Make up your mind.

Thanks for supporting my point.

That point being: rake is not a function of dealer wages.

Rake is a function of: "the highest the market will bear."


Whether the limiting factor is customers' willingness to pay or statute or some other factor doesn't matter.

What matters is that dealer wages is not a significant deciding factor.

Cardrooms will charge rake to maximize their revenue, irrespective of what it costs them to hire dealers.



.

Yes we need to CONTAIN tipping! Keep the money in the game. Most of these joints don't give that much back. The rake is high. Keep the money in the game. Let some marginal players be winners. Let some losers break even.

Or just take a look at the 10-20 plus games and observe the tipping. Chances are they tip less than you and their pots are a lot bigger. I play 5-10 and 10-20 and we tip A DOLLAR, MAYBE TWO. That is what is expected and that's the way it should be unless someone just wants to be overly generous. But what I can't stand is people being bullied into tipping more than what the dealers deserve.

Dealers don't do much. When anything slightly controversial pops up they get the pit boss every time. So what do they do. Deal cards and match chip stacks. When a dealer is actually entertaining and gets action going I cut them in more but that seems to be getting more and more rare.

Keep the money in the game!