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Old 06-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #326
DeathAndTaxes
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
The following situations have occurred in the past:

1. Payout schedules changed mid-tourney upon request
2. Players choosing seats / whether to move when recombining tables
3. A deal being made and enforced when not all players have agreed
4. Allowing "suspicious action" - e.g., throwing out a big chip and after more action declaring raise, going back on verbal action that was "misunderstood"
Those aren't tipping issues, those are blatant gaming violations. So have you notified the gaming regulator? If not then why not?
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:56 AM   #327
DeathAndTaxes
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Dealer-Guy View Post
No one should tell another person whether or not to tip or how much to tip.

Having said that, if a poker dealer has the hope of getting tipped, they will work faster and cleaner. Dealing more hands with fewer mistakes is +EV for anyone playing.

Pay a dealer a fixed rate and any incentive to deal faster and make fewer mistakes is gone.
Or if the house cared they could base compensation on speed, accuracy, player comments. I always tip but the more I think about it the system is horribly inefficient. Say the average dealer makes $12 per hour through tips and wages. Have the house replace that with $12 per hour wage on average employee. Say rookies make up to 25% less. Wages increase from say $12 to $18 depending on the skill & rating of the employee (deal rate, error rate, avg customer feedback). House uses higher ranked dealers to play more important tables. In essence it is still results based compensation but far more analytically driven.

Employees who fail to meet minimum standards (hands per shift, errors per day) are terminated.

Then house can simply indicate tipping is not expect for normal service, however gratuities are welcome for exceptional service above what is normally expected. Since tipping isn't expected when someone receives bad service instead of just stiffing the dealer (which only stiffs all workers in the pool) people would be more likely to complain.

That is how it works in most European countries. Tipping went from a bonus to a required portion of some workers paycheck and that is dumb IMHO. I would trade a 1% increase in rake for paying dealers a living wage and no need to tip and likely the system would have a higher correlation between pay and skill.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:34 AM   #328
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Say a dealer makes 12 dollars an hour? the worst make more than that if I told you what the best make , well , you would start building "new tipping modules" and get a headache.

1 Quit acting like all the "money is yours on the table" Brick and Mortar is not the internet.
2 Casinos really dont care what you think, they only do the mim. for Poker in general because it in general is not very profitible compared to other "Profit Centers".
3. Casinos like the current compensation system, the dealers like it, 95 plus of the players either like it or tolerate it cause they tip well, So crying on this thread about minus ev and money off table and waaa this and waa that makes you look small, petty, if your win rate is such that you cant tip fine, dont, But what im really tired of is 2plus2 people treating customers as "FISH DONKYS, CASH COWS and all the other names, they are very good and mostly nice people who through their kindness pay my bills, And for alot of you ,YOURS too !!

Last edited by Rapini; 06-14-2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: tried to help some with the formatting; removed personal attacks
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:09 PM   #329
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by DeathAndTaxes View Post
Or if the house cared they could base compensation on speed, accuracy, player comments. I always tip but the more I think about it the system is horribly inefficient.
Measuring speed and accuracy, and seeking feedback, are not negligible in cost. Letting players essentially devise their own compensation scheme is beneficial for the house because they don't have to pay to measure these attributes. It has worked well for years because the dealer's interests (drop more tokes) are aligned with the house's (drop more rake).

Some corporations are more gung-ho about measurement, e.g. Caesars Entertainment and their Bravo system if they're still using it. But that doesn't change the dynamics of how this system evolved or why it's been left alone.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:55 PM   #330
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by QuadsOverQuads View Post
Perhaps because real winning players can make a lot more money at 25 hands per down than at 12.

q/q
...and what percentage of the 9-10 players at the table are long-term winners?

Don't most players secretly want slower dealers - at least financially speaking?
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #331
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Measuring speed and accuracy, and seeking feedback, are not negligible in cost. Letting players essentially devise their own compensation scheme is beneficial for the house because they don't have to pay to measure these attributes. It has worked well for years because the dealer's interests (drop more tokes) are aligned with the house's (drop more rake).
Except correct me if I am wrong don't most casinos use a tip oool?

It isn't a measure of skill/service if dealers are in a tip pool and thus "bad" ones get comped the same as the "good" ones.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:03 PM   #332
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by DeathAndTaxes View Post
Except correct me if I am wrong don't most casinos use a tip oool?
I don't have precise percentages, but it's highly locale-specific. LV, Calif, MS, NJ: mostly not pooled. MI, Foxwoods, Canada: pooled. No clue about other places.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:04 PM   #333
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by DeathAndTaxes View Post
Except correct me if I am wrong don't most casinos use a tip oool?

It isn't a measure of skill/service if dealers are in a tip pool and thus "bad" ones get comped the same as the "good" ones.
No tip pool in most poker rooms
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:07 PM   #334
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by VenetianComp View Post
I'm very proud of stiffing all the dealers. We're a market based economy. There is absolutely no reason to tip so long as there are plenty of people waiting to replace any dealer who doesn't like his job. Why should any of us overpay for this service? It's not like the service is any better. It's almost like the more you toke a dealer, the less they try. Once they hit the min needed to fade their bills, any thoughts of service go right out the window. Dealers provide the worst service I've ever seen from any service related employee in my life.
I disagree with this, but, you know what, you have the right to your opinion and you deserve credit for actually having the guts to state the stuff in bold. If that's how you feel, so be it, you stated the truth instead of using the comically-silly "I prefer a different tipping model" or "I'm morally against tipping" or "my winrate suffers so I tip the minimum and let everyone else pay the difference" excuses people are firing off in threads like this. If someone is against tipping because they don't want the dealer to have it, that's their business, but they should come out and say it instead of trying to deflect attention with ridiculous tipping model breakdowns.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:26 PM   #335
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
If that's how you feel, so be it, you stated the truth instead of using the comically-silly... "my winrate suffers so I tip the minimum and let everyone else pay the difference" excuses people are firing off in threads like this.
I've been very straightforward about my motives, and i have nothing to be ashamed of for tipping "the minimum" [sic]. One of the things i'm trying to learn from message forums, and apply to every aspect of life, is that uniformed or logically incoherent opinions of my reasoning don't reflect on me and really just don't matter that much. Thank you for the growth opportunity.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:14 PM   #336
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
I've been very straightforward about my motives, and i have nothing to be ashamed of for tipping "the minimum" [sic]. One of the things i'm trying to learn from message forums, and apply to every aspect of life, is that uniformed or logically incoherent opinions of my reasoning don't reflect on me and really just don't matter that much. Thank you for the growth opportunity.
Mine was a reference to about 15 people in this thread and about 100 who have appeared in the total of all the tipping threads. You do not have to keep showing up immediately after I post to defend yourself if you feel it doesn't apply to you. My opinion is far from logically incoherent, it's actually about as reasonable and as accurate as it gets in this thread. When I posted it the first time, half the thread agreed that I was spot on. If you feel your reasons for tipping X are legit , fantastic for you, but only a complete fool could possibly tell me I'm wrong. It is as obvious as the day is long that these threads contain people who want to justify not tipping by firing off ridiculous breakdowns of new tipping models in order to take people's attention away from the fact that they're simply being cheap.

Also, spare me quoting "the minimum". We all know what I meant by this, I'm pretty sure I don't need you to break down for me that there's no "minimum" tip.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #337
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Venetian Comp is a guy that just joined, has 13 posts, and half of them criticize or disparage poker dealers. Real class act.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:49 PM   #338
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by donkitall View Post
Venetian Comp is a guy that just joined, has 13 posts, and half of them criticize or disparage poker dealers. Real class act.
donkitall is a guy who's only been here for a year, has 55 posts, and at least one of them criticizes a guy who he barely knows. Real class.

DYSWIDT?

Both you and he are entitled to your opinions, and this thread exists for that reason. Some people lurk 2+2 for eons, and then something they feel passionate about causes them to post.

Maybe the guy just honestly has a dislike for poker dealers. I mean, they're not that lovable, are they?

----

In a separate thought, why is "It hurts my winrate," being dismissed as invalid again? If a dealer can make 50k/year after taxes (which we know they can), they must make at least 60k/year pre-tax.

While it might not be the nicest reason, winning players full-time players must represent at least 6k of that 60k based on their percentage of the table population.

Obviously for every full-time player that never tips, a dealer loses some percentage of that 6k (and all dealers as a whole lose their share of 6k), and that player gets to keep 6k. 6k isn't chump change. That 500/mo is a car payment, or (over time) the difference in paying off a mortgage 10 years sooner...
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:51 PM   #339
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^^^ That doesn't mean Venitian Comp is wrong or his position is without merit or reason.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:06 PM   #340
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Looking for your opinion. If you are a dealer, please say so:

Instead of tipping with each pot win, I've started tipping the dealer at the end of his shift at the table. The dealers general seem to be OK with this. I play mostly O8 so there are many spilt pots that don't have alot of profit, so tipping in those situations don't make sense to me.

Do dealers mind waiting to get relieved to get a tip?
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:15 PM   #341
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
It is as obvious as the day is long that these threads contain dealers who want to justify getting tipped by firing off ridiculous breakdowns of new tipping models in order to take people's attention away from the fact that they simply want the tip for themselves.
FYP because this works both ways. Have not read a post from a dealer yet saying "I just want the tip for myself". There is always some story/excuse for them too.

Honestly, your view must be biased somehow. This is being done by both sides.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:42 PM   #342
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
I disagree with this, but, you know what, you have the right to your opinion and you deserve credit for actually having the guts to state the stuff in bold. If that's how you feel, so be it, you stated the truth instead of using the comically-silly "I prefer a different tipping model" or "I'm morally against tipping" or "my winrate suffers so I tip the minimum and let everyone else pay the difference" excuses people are firing off in threads like this. If someone is against tipping because they don't want the dealer to have it, that's their business, but they should come out and say it instead of trying to deflect attention with ridiculous tipping model breakdowns.
It is very ignorant of you to repudiate the argument of the other side in a debate. Believe it or not most people do not see the world in black and white, and use complex reasoning to form their opinions. Accusing your opponents of reptilian thinking is both disrespectful and untrue.

Besides, nobody has ever been afraid of being an ass on the internet. If their sole reason for not tipping was greed they would proudly say it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:40 PM   #343
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Midnight Cowboy View Post
I don't understand why anyone would want more $ coming off the table than there already is.
I don't get this argument. No one complains about taking money off the table when I tip the cocktail waitress a white chip when she brings me a drink.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:57 PM   #344
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean327 View Post
Looking for your opinion. If you are a dealer, please say so:

Instead of tipping with each pot win, I've started tipping the dealer at the end of his shift at the table. The dealers general seem to be OK with this. I play mostly O8 so there are many spilt pots that don't have alot of profit, so tipping in those situations don't make sense to me.

Do dealers mind waiting to get relieved to get a tip?
Depends. If, for example, I push you 12 pots (including splits) and you throw me a dollar at the end of the down, I assume you're broke/cheap/poor and it sickens you to part with anything more than a dollar.

If you don't win a single hand (maybe one) and you throw me a dollar a the end of my down, you're awesome and I hope things turn around for you next time I'm at your table.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:51 PM   #345
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by devilhatesaloser View Post
Depends. If, for example, I push you 12 pots (including splits) and you throw me a dollar at the end of the down, I assume you're broke/cheap/poor and it sickens you to part with anything more than a dollar.

If you don't win a single hand (maybe one) and you throw me a dollar a the end of my down, you're awesome and I hope things turn around for you next time I'm at your table.
Wow, you sound miserable.

So how broke/cheap/poor are you that an extra $1-$2 changes your personality so much?
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:12 PM   #346
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Besides, nobody has ever been afraid of being an ass on the internet. If their sole reason for not tipping was greed they would proudly say it.
Except they haven't been saying it. A grand total of two or three people did. Everyone else ducked the question or used the examples I provided. Am I really to believe that all these people are morally against tipping and being cheap has nothing to do with it?

Quote:
While it might not be the nicest reason, winning players full-time players must represent at least 6k of that 60k based on their percentage of the table population.
I would imagine the number is a lot lower than $6k even for fulltime players. Seems a bit high. Also, it doesn't automatically mean you have it in your hands at the end of the year. It flat out is not as simple as, "I tipped X, if I hadn't tipped X and tipped 0 instead, I'd have X more".

Quote:
FYP because this works both ways. Have not read a post from a dealer yet saying "I just want the tip for myself". There is always some story/excuse for them too.

Honestly, your view must be biased somehow. This is being done by both sides.
Not sure what my bias could possibly be. I simply dislike cheap, boring, nitty people who say things on the internet they never would in real life. All the people with the tipping model silliness would never have this conversation in front of someone's face. They shrink like violets at the actual table anytime the subject comes up and are probably embarrassed as hell to not tip.

Last edited by 2OutsNoProb; 06-14-2011 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:48 PM   #347
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
Not sure what my bias could possibly be. I simply dislike cheap, boring, nitty people who say things on the internet they never would in real life. All the people with the tipping model silliness would never have this conversation in front of someone's face. They shrink like violets at the actual table anytime the subject comes up and are probably embarrassed as hell to not tip.
You are correct, its just that I could find an equal number of examples of BS from both sides. I'm just not sure why you chose to pick on 1.

Obviously none of this stuff gets brought up in real life, just like I hope the dealers really don't tell people how they now think they are scum because they didn't tip what they felt was right. Call them cheep, broke, etc.

Also, I'm willing to bet that not every dealer ITT who expressed their opinions would be comfortable with "higher ups" at their casino reading their posts. There is some extreme cases of unprofessionalism and a lot of hate in these posts. Maybe the reason non tippers shrink in their chairs is because they know at least 1 person probably now wishes they would suffer physical pain in the near future.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:11 PM   #348
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
Except they haven't been saying it. A grand total of two or three people did. Everyone else ducked the question or used the examples I provided. Am I really to believe that all these people are morally against tipping and being cheap has nothing to do with it?
I imagine it's both. Almost every decision an individual makes is somehow influenced by greed. If it isn't financial greed it is emotional. We even help others to help ourselves, to feel good about ourselves, or to receive praise. It is human nature to look out for #1. Unless you are Buddha greed is the foundation of everything you do and believe. With that said, it is hypocritical to hold greed against the players while you are demanding more. Dealers aren't the only ones making a living at the table.

Quote:
Not sure what my bias could possibly be. I simply dislike cheap, boring, nitty people who say things on the internet they never would in real life. All the people with the tipping model silliness would never have this conversation in front of someone's face. They shrink like violets at the actual table anytime the subject comes up and are probably embarrassed as hell to not tip.
I just want to point out that anything I say online I will say in person. To be honest, sometimes I wish I didn't because my big mouth can get me into trouble. But I will agree with you that most people are non-confrontational in real life. I have had people twice my size curse under their breath because they are afraid to tell me to my face.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:31 AM   #349
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Club Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
I don't get this argument. No one complains about taking money off the table when I tip the cocktail waitress a white chip when she brings me a drink.

You're right, you don't get it. The post I quoted was referring to players who tip redbirds on small pots. It hurts the game, plain and simple.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:59 AM   #350
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devilhatesaloser View Post
Depends. If, for example, I push you 12 pots (including splits) and you throw me a dollar at the end of the down, I assume you're broke/cheap/poor and it sickens you to part with anything more than a dollar.

If you don't win a single hand (maybe one) and you throw me a dollar a the end of my down, you're awesome and I hope things turn around for you next time I'm at your table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncmaster View Post
Wow, you sound miserable.

So how broke/cheap/poor are you that an extra $1-$2 changes your personality so much?

Poker players who play for money more then fun do not want to hurt their win rate and, therefore, do not want to tip.

Dealers want tips.

No matter what argument you put out there, the ideology behind why a person doesn't want to tip and why a dealer wants tips is never going to change.

I suggest you stop the arguing and come to terms with the inevitable truth, poker players are stingy and dealers are greedy.



P.S. It is not an absolute.
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