You have it backwards. First off, you must understand what tipping actually means. When we are tipping, we are rewarding someone for their service. So why should we be automatically tipping dealers? Shouldn't they "earn" their tip, like a waitress does, or like a stripper does? When they do a good job, they earn themselves a tip; and when they do a poor job or don't care about their craft, they shouldn't be rewarded with a tip. It's pretty simple really.

If we are out there just tipping every hand no matter what to ever dealer, then what is the incentive for these dealers to actually deal well and in an efficient manner?

And as far as it not adding up to what I think, have you ever done the math on it? I know of a player in Vegas that tips EVERY hand, ranging anywhere from $1 to $7 (from what I've seen). This player plays 25-30 hours a week, every week. Do the math; trust me, it adds up to a lot.

You assume the house cares about their dealers and their players. I assume the house wants to earn the max they possibly can regardless of who gets hurt. No one person is responsible for this - it's the way the machine works. The house says paying dealers minimum wage is valid because the dealers make tips - at least that's their public argument. The house will take any stance on anything that puts more money in their pocket - they'll attempt to get away with whatever they think they can. When something doesn't work to maximize their profit, they change their policy and do something that does increase profits.

It's not just casinos. It's all large corporations or businesses. Individuals seem to be moving in this direction too. But there are still some individuals who are focused on providing value to the consumer. Small businesses sometimes provide value too. Large businesses and corporations are running farms where what they raise is money.

I could be wrong but these opinions that I have are reinforced over time through observation.

It doesn't balance out.
No tipping = deeper stacks.
Deeper stacks = looser play.
Looser play = bigger pots.
Bigger pots = higher average rake
Higher average rake = a chunk of the money "saved" coming off of the table anyway.

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. Clearly, on a website more full of life-fail than any other one in existence, I need simple words explained to me.

No one said you should "automatically" tip. These words do not appear in my post above or in any others in this thread. Tip as much or as little as you wish, or tip nothing. It's your right. I simply commented on something that seemed pretty obvious from your post, and something that is a very common sentiment here. This forum is full of people who spend their entire time at a B+M cardroom worrying about rules, etiquette, and dealer protocol. You make it sound as if you want to tip as little as possible, and like looking for convenient excuses to do so. If so, that's cool, it's your business, but don't get mad when it gets pointed out.

Does every hand mean every hand dealt or every hand won? If the former, then obviously he is an extreme case that is not representative of the people posting in this thread.

As far as how much it actually adds up to, I addressed this above.

Along the way ITT I'm sure I've also made it sound as if I want to tip as little as possible. And to be clear, I do indeed want to tip as little as possible. While I have plenty of convenient excuses for this, the ultimate reason is that it's my money and I'll do whatever I want with it. Since I'm aware that I'm not required to automatically tip, I prefer to selectively tip and keep the difference for myself.

Dealers (or players opposing perceived low/non tippers) provide their own convenient excuses why somebody else's money should become theirs. The dealer / waitress comparison is a common one. I don't buy into the dealer / waitress analogy and when that, among other reasons, is used I feel a dealer / salesman analogy is more fitting. When it's suggested that I tip more (or implied that I'm cheap otherwise) it's similar to trying to sell me something I don't need or want. It's been a while, but as I've said it before, the more I'm pressured to tip, the less likely I am to do so (the pressuring, bullsh**ing salesman does not get my business).


So it's been about 8-9 months since I made an effort to reduce tips. Probably went from an average tipper (excluding when 1st started playing and was well above, ie naive) to maybe the lowest to 2nd lowest tipper above zero tippers at an ordinary table. I don't play the most and don't play the least, avg maybe 40-50 hrs a month. Still enough to notice a significant difference in $ saved. That big difference to me as one individual is negligible to the dealers I might have withheld from collectively. Oh, and my own personal tip reduction revolution has not caused the rake to increase (see bs salesman suggestions of that happening).

I feel like the phrase "What if everyone did it like that?" should apply here, but I'm afraid it wouldn't matter to the people on the non-tipping side.

I feel like the phrase "Not concerned because we both know the idea of everyone doing this in nonsense" should apply here. And perhaps the non-tipping side would be more appropriately referenced as the non-mindless tipping side.

It's called Zombie tipping lol

Pardon my use of aptly descriptive words to convey my message. I didn't mean to offend.

My interpretation of the message "What if everyone did that?" in this context is any combination of:

You better tip more or suffer the consequences.

You're not that bright so I'll try to convince you to believe in an unrealistic hypothetical.

If people were bad tippers like you, and bad tippers are bad people, then the world would be a bad place.



I'm probably exaggerating and do not believe the intent is this extreme, but is there not some degree of implied stigma there? If your apology is genuine I accept.

The past several months I've been trying to work a few more poker rooms into my rotation. One of the reasons is that I would feel less obligated to tip a dealer I don't know or don't know as well than a dealer who I'm more familiar with. That's not my purpose for mixing in more rooms, but as an example was mentioned ITT recently, I recognize it and am reiterating it as a factor. Anyway, I had a bad session at one of the rooms that I started playing at maybe once every three weeks or so. Early on I found myself in some cooler spots and was on my 2nd & 3rd buy-ins pretty quick. One of my selective tipping rules is that I won't tip when I'm stuck and as I was stuck this entire session I tipped zero. The majority of pots I won were with one particular dealer and not big enough to get me out of the red, but not too small for an ordinary $1 tip. So he pushes in to my table again coincidentally when I decided to concede defeat and was racking up. He acknowledges that I'm leaving and says "Thank you for playing" in a genuine way. There's no way of him knowing I busted my initial two buy-ins earlier and from his perspective it would appear that I was winning and just a non-tipper. To this point I haven't played there a lot, but enough to recognize this dealer and for him to recognize me. Looking back I'm pretty sure I never tipped him. Now this is a dealer who is not particularly fast, efficient, or friendly but average across the board on standards that other dealers might claim constitutes a good dealer. But his even keeled demeanor and initiative to thank me, where some would chalk me up as a despicable non-tipping free loader, impressed me. Next time, for this guy, exceptions will be made. If I'm stuck and win pots with him I will tip $1 and if I'm having a good night and win bigger pots in his presence he's getting rare 10% tips from me.

So instead of tipping him on the spot when you feel he gave the appropriate service to have earned it, you will leave it to the luck of both 1.) you winning a pot while he deals and 2.) of your memory.

I need to bow out of this thread.

On the spot, I was a bit surprised, and it did not occur to me. Later on the drive home while thinking about it, I got a warm and fuzzy feeling. I was hoping the moral of the story would rub off on some (players can be won over with professionalism / dealers could benefit from taking the high road), but looks like it missed so far, 0-1.

He was being sarcastic 100%, some dealers will still act professional if not tipped but none are saying "Thanks for playing" and genuinely mean it.
Same as "Drive safe" as your leaving after not tipping. 100% they want you to get in a wreck on way home.

How much should dealers make? How much do they make?

I see about 14-16 an hour with halfway decent benefits as fair for their skills. If I ever found out they were making more than 20 an hour I would find a way to tip less.

Wow. I'd be a little more careful with throwing out that 100% number.

I work at a private room and the rake is significantly lower than at a casino. I also play for a living and dealers make a very nice amount there. I think players tip better at private games or rooms, I also think because the rake is less they feel they can tip better.

How big of you. You will tip him in the future, if you win, because of something he said to you today.

I'll have to remember that the next time I go out to eat, and I've stiffed the waitress because I spent my last $10 on my meal. If she was nice, and friendly, and did a decent job, I'll tip her the next time I visit her establishment. Maybe next time I'll have more money, she'll just happen to be my waitress, and I'll have remembered her.

I probably won't be the first one to point out to you that a majority of dealers are part-time, and don't receive any benefits.

To meet me with condescension here... The point about how big of the dealer it was to act with class gets lost again.

It would have to vary from room to room. It only makes sense to tip more in rooms where there is obviously less traffic and smaller games. I do that already. I cringe at the idea of dealers making high salaries because it does take away from the game. I think I am like most people who want the dealers to get paid appropriate for what they do and at the same time keep the marginal players playing. It would be bad for a dealers to be making a some great living working 25 hours a week at the expense of marginal player's leaving the games.

At a certain point increasing dealer's salaries gets them diminishing returns as it would cause games to dry up.

Someone takes a job:

1) No benefits
2) Below minimum wage (depending on jurisdiction, California & Nevada do not pay below min wage)
3) Only 3 or 4 shifts a week
4) Maybe 4-5 hours a shift in which to make money
5) Totally dependent on the generosity of the customer

Now that person expects to make a decent living and loads the blame on the customer if he doesn't.

How about a dealer/hotel housekeeping comparison? Both are just doing their job (to use your expression) and your tip most likely won't result in better service to you, especially if you are only in a hotel for one night. Still, it is standard to tip both occupations. (Although somehow I get the feeling that not only do you not tip hotel housekeeping, given your philosophy you probably have never even considered doing so.)

What's your convenient excuse for this analogy?

This type of thread really shows people's character at its worst. It really shows how selfish people are and how badly they justify treating the fellow man like crap.


This is the best of the worst. Cause I can bet any money this person would be the first to complain about bad dealers. As well as complain if they made all e-tables due to the fact this type of person would not want to tip.

You are confusing tipping and being generous. Tipping when the situation calls for it does not make you a generous person. I tip dealers, waitresses, hotel maids, bartenders, barbers, etc. not because I am generous, but because they work for establishments that:

1. Pay these people less than they are worth
2. Charge their customers less than the what their goods or services are worth.

The reason this crazy sounding, but well accepted system in these industries works (whether you think it's a good or bad system) is because it is assumed that the customer will make up the difference (with exceptions for EXTREMELY unsatisfactory service) by way of a fair tip. Almost everybody, including myself, complies.

If wanted to be generous I might 'tip' the doctors, lawyers, custodians, cooks at the restaurant, hotel front desk workers, security guards at the casino, etc. that give me service.

However, I don't just hand these people extra money because they:

1. Receive everything the market dictates they are worth by way of salary
2. Provide services their businesses charge me the full cost of having it provided for me