I don't think it's a derail -- we're still talking about tipping. Or, at least I had tipping in mind behind my question about rake.

I don't see how anybody has entered into a social contract to tip, especially if they are paying a fee to be there. Is there a sign at the door or something that says "dealers are not paid and work for tips"?

I guess that I need to spend deeper thinking on why/when I tip.

It's part of the understood agreement when a member signs up. It's a private social club. Even following what most "pro players" here in this thread would consider appropriate at a casino is enough for me (which if you browse the thread, you'll see plenty of dealers calling those players cheap, and you'll see just as many say thank you and be genuinely grateful for it). I don't expect tips on preflop scoops or small pots, and I don't expect more than a buck on any pot. Of course I'm human and my internal dialogue is my own, and maybe I'm rooting for the big tipper to win that giant pot, but it's just variance. Also, I don't get ****ty like most dealers might if they get stiffed all night. I try my best to always be professional and to treat everyone the same. I may not engage on a personal level the same way I engage with a great tipper, but I'm NEVER changing the way I deal or my level of courtesy based on what people give me. My bills get paid. If my expenses are in jeopardy of not getting paid if I have a bad week or two, then maybe I'm living beyond my means or maybe I should look into a different line of work.


I also realize that I'm not the norm, although I truly wish I was. I get really angry at outwardly entitled dealers, talking about tips in front of players...thinking they deserve some sort of percentage of any pot or jackpot type payout...makes me ashamed and embarrassed. They're often the worst dealers too. I'm sure there's a correlation in the level of professionalism and work ethic.

Because you are free riding off of the others.

There is a local monthly tourney here that is a $200 tourney, with an "optional" $10 donation to pay for venue/tables/chips/etc. Everyone pays. Why? Because you're a dick not to. If I decided not to pay, but everyone else still did, I get the benefit of the system without chipping in. If everyone decided to be like me and not pay, the tourney stops happening, because no one is paying the overhead.

Same in Lord Crispen's case. The dealers aren't getting paid. So no tips means no dealers meaning no game. If you want the game, contribute to the system.

Analogy/Derail incoming.

When I was in high school, my basketball team used to organize a car wash at a gas station 2 or 3 times a month. We'd hold up a sign advertising $3 (or $5 or whatever) and raise a predictable amount of money in an afternoon.

One day we changed the sign to "Free car wash" and we started raising more money. At a certain point the sign evolved to "Free car wash - donations accepted".

I don't remember anyone ever getting a car wash without giving us at least a couple bucks, but would they be stiffs if they had? Wasn't there an unwritten agreement that if we washed your car we expected a donation?

Isn't that the same as a dealer who carries a tip box around?

LC talks a lot like he's in Texas, maybe not. Michigan charity rooms are raked ($5-6, no promo allowed) and Dealers 'could' make as little as the 'waitress' wage (below min wage) depending on room policy and applicable State/Fed law .. plus tips. Typically the Floor/Owner will still receive tips when giving a Dealer a break and sometimes those tips end up with the Dealer anyway.

Therein lies the rub ... In general we all know the (expanding) list of 'service' jobs that historically receive tips. These are typically jobs that are perceived as low paying from an hourly stand point, but consumers can choose a level of 'appreciation' based on their experience/interaction with the provider. The issue is that it's assumed these are low hourly wage jobs, but the consumer really doesn't know what hourly wage is being provided by an employer.

Getting back to poker, it's not unheard of for a Dealer to make more than minimum wage plus tips during a cash session ... and receive a yet higher hourly wage during tournament downs since typically (in charity rooms for sure) only the Dealer of the Final Table actually gets any tip money. Dealers get rotated through the FT in an effort to acquire at least some tips from tournament efforts. Typically a Dealer may start out with tournament shifts and have to work their way into cash downs as they prove themselves or just gain seniority. Tournament tips in a casino are typically divided up based on the number of downs each Dealer worked with obviously a FT Dealer probably working the most downs.

Perception is the key to all tipping IMO. Would you tip more or less if you knew the Dealer/provider was 'also' getting $12/hour pay? (That's just a number)

Will your hair cutter put in less effort next time if you don't tip? Do you tip the waitress (cashier) when you pick up take out food? I've seen tip jars at smoothie/coffee places, so why not McDonalds/BK?

I actually tipped the cashier at Taco Bell the other day when he saved me quite a bit of $$ on my order since I didn't know the menu that well nor that it was 'happy hour' on certain menu items.

Why can a restaurant 'force' you to pay 18% gratuity for parties 7+ but not when you walk in with 8 and go 4+4? Sounds like a convenience fee, not a tip, to me.

Poker (and I guess our cab rider friend as well) provides an element that we don't see in most tipping situations ... it's very visible to the other consumers and thus provides much more social pressure to 'conform'.

Is a Dealer a 'service' position? We've been led to believe this, but now also enter another aspect of poker .. a potential thought process that the Dealer had something to do with the winning or losing of a hand and potentially the tip should be modified to reflex such results! Now not only is your tipping out in front of other Players to observe, but we also have the differing opinions on what/why we are actually tipping in the first place!

How much does the waitress suffer if the kitchen fails? Would we tip our valet if he brings the car back damaged or leaves one of our bags at the registration desk? Is it really that hard to open the front door at a hotel or to get in a car?

The origins of tipping may go back to England, where house guests tipped the staff for their 'extra' efforts caused by their visit.

Just as is suggested with RIT, are we to only have one opinion on tipping?
1) Is the service provider (and employer) relying on tips for a large portion of total income? (We may never know for sure ... )
2) Are we tipping for 'the' service or for 'extra' service beyond what is normally expected? (This differs by each person's perception.)

Fun thread as always ... GL

That's crazy. Every room I've worked prorates the tips for # of downs dealt, no matter when they were dealt.

Yes, it's a crazy consequence of the charity room scene. The tips aren't that big anyway on a $1000 prize pool, so chopping them would create a lot of work for very little 'gain'. Some Players do remember who dealt to them and take care of them during cash play or the next time around. Tips really fall through the cracks in charity rooms for sure ... which is one of the reasons that some Dealers actually do deal ...

... which might lead me into my 'federal sales tax' v 'income tax' conversation, but this isn't the place for that. GL

99% of people that are going to let a bunch of clueless teenagers wash their car (assuming not a jalopy) is doing charity work; that is, the whole point of getting the car washed is to give the kids money for their trip or whatever. You know, I eat a non-processed vegan diet, but I'll still buy 20 boxes of ****ty Girl Scout cookies from my nieces and just give the cookies away.

I mean, haven't "pro dealers" figured out that they need to view their tips as yearly tips / yearly hours = hourly tipping wage and not sweat the day-to-day nonsense?

Yet earlier you defended that winning player that is having a bad month for not tipping or lowering his tipping because he's down?


"My bills get paid" is always my answer to not getting tips in the short term. I agree with you that the yearly income is all that matters in the long term, but if everyone subscribed to the freeloading, which is highly promoted by many of the the 'pro' players and all the Mr. Pinks out there, it all comes down.


*edit* I'm not going to delete it just in case it's already been read, but I may have mistaken chillrob's and your posts earlier. Sorry if this is the case.

I doubt that all the "promotion" is going to change people's tipping habits. The vast majority will still tip no matter what (even if dealer's wages increased and rake doubled as a result)

^^^ this is all overhead, not dealer gratuity.

Do you tip the dealers over and above this $10 donation toward the overhead?

It’s self-dealt. The point remains the same. It’s an optional money that players pay to ensure there is a game. One or two players could not pay and freeroll everyone else. If everyone decided to do that, no more poker for anyone. Just like tips.

Are you asserting that "no tips = no poker" for the entire poker industry? Or just these rooms with unpaid volunteers that are dealing?

For those games. But “no tips” people are freeloading in all poker games because if no one tipped, the rake would be considerably higher.

There would be many cases of self-correction should the masses decide to discontinue tipping. Bosses would have to make adjustments in an effort to maintain their desired level of 'service' provided by their employees via unavoidable attrition of employees to positions that would either maintain or increase their current income level. There are only so many people who actually love their occupation enough to just 'accept' whatever pay is available to them based on the market condition.

One thing is certain, bosses/companies take a cut of every dollar they take in. So should they have to increase their income to cover necessary increased wages then 'all' of those dollars wouldn't reach the employee. Thus increasing the overall amount of money that would need to be taken in to replace the lost tip wages on an equal level.

I still fall back on 'perception' ... Do you tip your 'on site' plumber when he hands you a bill that includes an $80/hour labor rate for his owner? But 'all' of us tip the paperboy who we assume is working for peanuts. GL

I don't know that this is true. I expect there would be plenty of people willing to deal cards for a low wage with no tips (because they like being in the casino or around the card room, because it's an entry level job into an industry, because it's better than a million other low wage jobs). Or, casinos could finally push the move to electronic tables.

The adjustments would vary from casino to casino and market to market.

Some would go to e-tables (which I would predict would decrease business and lower game quality somewhat.)

I think you are completely delusional to think there would be basically any competent+ dealers who would do it for a low entry-level wage just “to be around a casino.” You would end up being dealt to by the guys who didn’t make the cut at Burger King in many cases.

"what if everyone stopped tipping" is a useless academic exercise

I can't believe this argument is still going on about tipping the dealers... For God's sakes, throw them a buck per hand, jesus christ.

For those who use a live poker tracker app like Poker Income or RunGood, is it worth keeping track of how much you tip at the tables? There's an entry for tipping and I don't bother with it since I consider tips to be part of the rake (and I don't track how much rake I pay) but wanted to see what others thought.

It'll only serve to make you mad. No value.

This is a great post.

I wish you the best.

I have been debating the same thing

For those that dont follow live MTTs, Ramon Colillas (from Spain) in pic just won the PSPC in Bahamas for $US 5.1 million. (he won an entry from Stars so was in for $0 )

I'd agree with Todd's response. Regardless on how you feel with what Ramon tipped, to so blatantly public shame him for what YOU believe HE should have done is out of line and sort of low rent on Sam's part.

Aside from tipping being a personal choice, tipping norms are not the same in all cultures/countries.

But if that number isn't >0%/$0 then they have a point. And they are free to make that point. Not tipping on 5.1 is the definition of BUSH.