To recap:
Generous amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip because they're already overpaid.
Measley amount taken out for dealers: Don't tip, it's not our fault their manager is screwing them.

It can be further simplified to this: if someone else mandates the tip, that's the tip.

Rapini thanks for your perspective on my specific situation.

If anyone else has an opinion on this specific circumstance, that would be much appreciated.

Tourney info:
$1500 + $175, the $175 is $110 rake and $65 to staff and dealers.

# of entries is 500+


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Worry about the poker part of the tournament. If you cash and feel like tipping more than the 4% that came out of your buyin, then leave whatever amount you feel like.

Quick guestimate math.

$32,500 top pool at 500 players.

2 day tournament, say 20 hours of play. 40 dealer downs.

Minimum of 60 dealers to start.

$13 or so a down per dealer.

Whether that's acceptable to you is your decision to make.

Probably even less because I've never seen the full $65 go solely to the dealers. Probably cuts in floors and other staff.

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If you think that every dollar that is withheld goes to the dealers - or even a high percentage - you are sorely mistaken. You can be assured that "tournament staff' includes floors, porters, EVS, etc. The dealers are lucky if their cut of anything that is withheld is 50%...

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That was the caveat at the bottom. Best case scenario if my math is correct is $13 a down. It's probably closer to half that.

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You math is horrible.

$13 a down is $26 an hour.

32500/26 = 1250 table hours

So you just multiplied 60 dealers times 20 hours.... not how it works.

After the first half day, you are going to have a lot less tables. And a lot less dealers dealing. The second day will start with much less. You want them tipped from the tournament when they are dealing cash games?

Even at the start, 50 tables, 50 dealers dealing, and 10 on break. You, of course want them tipped for their break time too.

So, there is no way that there will be 1250 table hours (or 2500 downs).

At least 30% is likely going to supervisors so that number is not as high as it looks, but it's still a decent amount. Tipping is not required but is definitely appreciated.

The math that came up with $13/down is definitely wrong but I'm not going to try to come up with the right number because as I pointed out, nobody cares when the number is really low. They just like to point out the cases where it's high to justify not tipping ever.

Even in jurisdictions like Atlantic city where supervisors are on salary and not allowed to receive tips?

There are a few properties where it all goes to the dealers but they are in the minority.

Just because a supervisor can't take an individual tip doesn't mean they aren't getting a share of the tip pool.

I certainly would consider it false advertising if a tournament had an add on labeled "dealer appreciation" and the money didn't all go to the dealers.

If it doesn't, and players aren't tipping because that seems like enough, dealers have a legitimate beef with the house about the way this is being handled.

I know this is a tipping thread ... but ... anyone want to come work in Michigan? Dealers and Floor now being considered for Labor Day (or post Labor Day) new 14 table room to open south of Grand Rapids, Michigan (on the good side of the state) at Gun Lake Casino, Wayland, MI.

"New dealers will initially learn blackjack, completing a free-training, prior to promotion to the poker room. On average, new full-time dealers can expect to make up to $43,000 annually, with free health insurance, free shift meals, among many other benefits."

Now this verbiage wont get by anyone in this forum, but I did talk to a Pit Boss last night and it's more there for the existing employees to feel like they aren't being 'gone around' for this opportunity. GL

Supervisors in Illinois can not accept tips and are not allowed to get a share of the tip pool. Unless of course the dealers want to take the supervisors out for a beer after the tournament.....right......

there's certain MGM property in AC where tournament rake is smaller, only 3% goes towards dealers, they tournaments levels increase slowly and as a result go on forever (until recently they wouldn't facilitate deals either)

they also employ ungodly number of dealers and pay decent tournament rate

it shouldn't be on players to come up with extra cash in the casinos that practice stealing from their own dealers

I wasn't bitching about staff fees coming out of tournament entries. I was informing the thread about a misconception.

If you have a problem with the system why don't you take it up with my boss?

I didn't say you were bitching.

Dude said 4% goes to staff and dealers. If you're not getting enough of that cut, then it's on you and your fellow dealers to demand it. If they don't give it to you and the players are not tipping enough extra and you keep dealing tourneys there, then you have tacitly agreed that that's the market rate.

I don't even know where you deal. The only problem I have with "the system" is it's a money grab for the casinos. They can't steal it as easily in the cash games, so they stick it to the tourney players where the costs of running the tourney can be obfuscated more easily. Likewise, though, when I sit and play, then I'm tacitly agreeing it should be what it is.

You telling me to "take it up with my boss" implies that I'm unhappy with the system and that I'm venting here at 2p2 instead of doing something about it. I'm simply informing this thread that there's a misconception about tourney tips, tourney staff fees, and about how they're calculated.

You guys seem to think that every tourney is a universe upon itself where the tourney director is sitting in his office with a formula trying to get the dealers to a certain amount of dollars per hour or dollars per down and I'm here to tell you that it isn't the case.

And it's like that at every room in South Florida that runs tourneys. So take it up with any of the bosses if you have a problem with it.

This is entirely untrue. Let's take a small tourney like a 1 day $350 buy in type tourney. That tourney will run 12+ hours. I can make more money off 6 cash tables in the same amount of time as I can if I get 200 players for that tourney. So those 6 cash games need 8 dealers where as the 200 player tourney needs about 30 dealers to start. Which do you think is more profitable? The reason we do the tourney is to get more cash games than we normally would because that is where we make the money. It costs me a lot more money to run that little tourney than it does to run the number of cash games that will generate the same amount of revenue.

Perhaps the connotation of an opening line of "take it up with your boss" is a little off-putting, apologies, but there was definitely some sour grapes in that post.

With regard to "taking it up with your bosses," again, how the vig that goes to staff/dealers is split up is your business; when the Rio takes $50K out of the prize pool for a 3-day event for just themselves, that is my business.

When after ten years of playing I realized that dealers make more per hour than most good (and very few) winning 2/5 players I cut my tipping down. $2-$6 rake a hand over the course of a night is minimum $1200 coming off the table a night, which as a player is nearly impossible to beat. So I tip an occasional buck, and in a really big pot $2, always with a sincere thank you.

I understand most dealers don't realize how hard it really is to beat the game, see huge pots going someone's way and see that amount as pure profit for the person, see wealthy recs tip huge, and come to expect tipping because of the culture and cognitive bias. Or they fairly see themselves as part of the service industry, e.g. waiting tables and bartending where tipping is obligatory. So I try not to get annoyed if they feel slighted. And they do take a lot of ridiculous abuse which is why I happily choose to tip away ~1500 of my meager winnings a year. I've seen players who stiff dealers entirely and you can get away with it if you want.

So the key takeaway is I really appreciate dealers who fairly thank players for any tip. If you just rap my money against the tokebox with silent entitlement it's really annoying. Or if you push a pot to me in a way that's subtly intended to get me to tip more, e.g. Here ya go! Or worse if you ever complain about my tipping to other refs especially when you make mistakes that cost me money.

And while dealers probably get **** health insurance from their employers, $50-60k a year with Medicare health is a pretty great deal for a skillless uncredentialed easy, social, and not stressful job.

And one day I too would love to be Paul Phua and tip a beautiful girl 9k. Or just a millionaire and let a hard-working dude keep an entire pot. But until then.

Was playing 2/5 Sunday night ... Dealers keep their own tokes and they have a spot on the table where they collect $1 chips until they can drop $5 chips. Fairly efficient, but somewhat 'sharp/direct' Dealer sits down and doesn't drop anything until way into the down after collecting over $35. By the end of the down the drop was over $50 in total.

This peaked my interest (and I was card dead) so I watched the next 4 Dealers drop no more than $22 during their downs. I really couldn't tell any difference in the size of pots or who was winning them as we had a pretty stable table the whole time.

So how did the first Dealer do it? ... No clue ... This Dealer would make my 'top 5' for 'running' a game, but not my list for 'favorite' Dealers in this room 'overall'.

The math is pretty easy here for 'hourly', but we don't know how many hours a week these Dealers work or if these downs were 'typical' ... nor do I know anything about the 1/2 tables in this room since I always play 2/5 there because it usually has 2-4 tables running all the time.

I don't really have a specific comment for this post, just 'reporting' an observation (in bold) that just adds to the list of speculation throughout this thread. GL

Don't post here much, but had a small situation (nothing too big) pop up and was curious other folks take on it:

One dealer in the small room I play in has been getting progressively more rude. It started out with playful banter between us but over the course of a couple months (I probably play on average every other week), it seems like she no longer views me as a customer. I think she thinks she is being funny but I'm getting irritated. A few weeks ago, I asked her if we could change one of the TVs and she told me to ask the poker room manager myself. Not a big deal, but still a little irritating.

Then just last week, she had at least 15 green $25 chips, along with a decent number of red $5 chips, but she still had a lot of empty room. I asked her (and pushed out a $100 stack of red chips) to convert to green after a hand had finished. She just said "no" and I thought she was being funny, so I said "No really can you give me some green." She said "I said no. I'll see if I can do it right before I move tables."

I was a little taken aback as I've never had a dealer just refuse to color me up, so I made a point not to tip her on the 2-3 pots I won after that. I think she got the hint and at the end, she did color me up before leaving and made some excuse for why she didn't before.

What do the poker etiquette folks say about this? I know not a huge situation, but just curious.

That's a lot of green for a tray IMO and red is usually in a tray to some degree depending on how the room does their drops. No clue, but it would be nice for you to at least post the 'lame' excuse she did use.

Is she singling you out or is the treatment the same for all the Players? You never know and in most cases it really isn't worth digging into. One of my main 'ideas' that I keep in mind is that when someone is steaming, or just goes off, I try to give them the benefit that I may have just been the last straw and it's really the other 85-90% of what's on their mind that adding to the steam. This has proven to be a pretty good stance to take and you can usually get someone calmed down once you figure out what's really on their mind. GL

unless the dealer well is pretty big, fairly empty and there is a spot for 20 or more reds built-in (as in it will always get replenished in a fill) it’s out of line to expect trading in a whole stack of anything except singles