GL with that.

I do not use answer's method, but there is definitely upside, IMO, and less downside than you suggest. I don't think it's different for the sake of being different; I think those employing this tipping strategy think it's superior to the standard tipping strategy.

1. The dealer experiences less variance, because variance is introduced when the amount you get tipped is dependent on who wins pots. With less variance the dealer has quicker feedback on their performance.

2. Players have easier control over how much they tip when it is a single choice of a variable amount rather than multiple binary choices.

3. It would be easier to remember to tip, at least for me. The end of the down is in between hands so nothing interesting is happening. If other people are tipping at the same time you have an easy reminder. I don't know if others struggle with this but my mind is never on tipping after I win a pot.

4. It would not be chaos at the end of downs as you suggest if everyone employed this strategy. I expect it would work quite smoothly as it does in time rake games. Has collecting time rake not been generally smooth and efficient in your experience?

The alternative to tipping culture is not necessarily a flat salary for everybody. A lot of businesses pay based on performance. In a poker room it should be quite easy to pay based on dealer performance using hands/down as the measuring variable as Bravo can track raked hands.

I think this would be superior incentive to perform well than relying on player tips. Old man Bob is given clear performance expectations rather than having to wonder if he doesn't make as much as 21 year old Mellissa because he's not as sexy. Having well defined expectations of your employees is a good thing rather than forcing them to figure out themselves what will rake in the most money. There are also many times where dealers can earn more money by doing things contrary to the correct procedures you have laid out for them, for example rabbit hunting.

I respect the out-of-the-box thinking, but time rake is mandatory. A dealer can announce that it's time to pay rake. He or she can repeat the announcement, both to the table and directly to individual players. These are among the reasons why it goes smoothly.

How would that go for tipping? It would be like a bellhop waiting with his hand extended in ten directions.

Haha, yeah, that's no good. I guess the idea is that if this became standard and multiple people were doing it they can remind eachother. It's unlikely that 9 people forget to tip. I guess I wouldn't be surprised though knowing how poker players are. 6 of them are probably on their phones and the other three are watching football or checking out the waitress.

Actually, I do recall making an agreement to take care of the dealer in order for specific games to be run. For example when I've played Chinese poker tipping the dealer was mandatory and collected as part of the time rake.

I've used this analogy before, I think it kind of applies because both are service-related positions:

1: Not tipping a dealer is the exact same as not tipping a bartender. In a single-transaction vacuum, you are indeed stiffing them.

2: Applying that to this particular scenario of tipping after the down, what you are doing is the equivalent to sitting down at a bar, getting a drink, paying for it, and leaving no tip. Then when you are finished with the first drink, repeating that process until your evening is complete. Then at closing or whenever you leave, you leave a tip for the entire time you were there. Maybe.

This shouldn't be confused with sitting at a bar and running a tab either. Completey different from that.

In short..




But in the end, I realize I am never going to be able to change someone's mind with what I deem as reason, so I don't really get upset or anything. Most people understand the tipping economy/poker economy, but some don't. And some do and are just cheap. Those guys are the real prizes.

Ok.

In Going to come deal to you and be a decent sized dick (but just small enough that I don't get fired) and deal hands as fast as possible and pressure new people into acting faster because they are messing with my hands/hour.

Or

I'm going to deal at a respectable pace, keep the game flowing, keep people happy and do my best to get hands out in an efficient manner.

Dealer A gets more money in your system. Are you ok with that?

Question for the community, as I saw this scenario on Saturday.

The casino has a high hand promotion of $500 every 30 minutes. In addition, there is an instant high hand of at least $50 for quads or better with a pocket pair. Dealer sits down, deals player A the high hand right at the buzzer. Player collects the money and tips the dealer $5.

Roughly 30-60 minutes later, same player, hits another high hand, and collects the instant high hand as well(probably $50). Tips the dealer a $5 right as he gets up. I'm not sure the player felt like they were under-tipping.

My question is, for one high hand, what do you think is an appropriate tip, and is that tip less, more, or the same if you hit a 2nd in the same session?

I wouldn't tip anything for a high hand, nor for a BBJ. It's probably my money to begin with that they are just giving back to me.

I'd like to throw a question out there to see what others think:

In regards to tournament "dealer appreciation fees", how does this change the tipping expectation when players are fortunate enough to actually cash in a tournament?

Obviously, players only cash a fraction of the time, but with this dealer add-on, players pay this every single buy-in. It's essentially a necessity to pay because it adds a significant percentage of starting chips (often an additional 50%) while it's less than an additional 10% cost of the total buy-in. It makes it exponentially more difficult to cash when choosing not to and I've found that practically 100% of players elect to do it.

I realize that hitting a huge score certainly warrants giving extra at the end, but what about small/min cashes?

Paying this "pre-tip" and not cashing repeatedly really can eat into one's ROI over time.

On top of that, the floorman is usually selling for his staff when giving out the playout slip when players are fortunate enough to finally cash, asking "if you'd like to take care of the dealers, please feel free to leave tips in the box here." It makes me feel cheap if I don't double tip, especially on small cashes.

It's come to the point where casino admin fees are already so high on these tourneys, and now with the double tipping expectation, it just makes me feel like it's too hard to make a good return and it makes me not want to play tournaments at all.

I'm somebody who likes to take care of good dealers well while I also have no problem stiffing dealers for poor service. Blanket tipping the same regardless of service is awful in my opinion for many reasons, but I digress.

My primary purpose of playing poker is for money. If I wasn't making what I deem an acceptable hourly return, I'd probably quit poker forever. I just want to do what's mutually beneficial for my bottom line while still taking care of dealers fairly who provide good/adequate service.

Should I feel guilty if choosing to not tip again when barely finishing in the money? Do dealers expect everyone who cashes to give another tip?

Thanks.

I don't play many tournaments, but I thought no one tipped if there was a dealer appreciation fee built in. I certainly wouldn't.

Assuming I'm playing at my 'home' casino, I keep track of my chip count for every down and the Dealer who pushed in/out. If I were to finish 'way up' the ladder then I would probably tip a meager sum into the pool and then take care of the Dealers who gave me the biggest boost to my stack (relative to BB) .. similar to my controversial cash tip methods. Dealers can get fired for taking in tokes outside of work, but there's nothing stopping me from taking care of them the next time I see them at a cash table.

The thing about tournament tips is that the Dealers rarely know who tipped or how much unless you are among the final table ... and even then it may be hard to spot in a casino. Unless you hand the toke to a Dealer and then they turn it in like they are supposed to it may never be known if you did or didn't. That may not be directly your issue, but I do know one thing ... If you don't pay for the Dealer 'add on' then you will make yourself known around the room!

To actually answer your question. I think a tip from a min-cash player would be unexpected and very well received .. should it ever be found out that you tipped in the first place. GL

There's an annoying lack of transparency when it comes to the staffing fees and dealer addons. You won't know what percentage of that actually goes to dealers (it could be 100% or as low as 65% with the rest going to management and other positions) or what it equates to per down unless you're doing the work of calculating how much staffing is required based on the structure.

In the end this fee will be as low as casino management can make it and still attract a decent staff. There is a built in assumption that some tips will come in to prop that number up. One stop I go to used to be known for generous tipping so the staff fee was very low but the dealers were very well paid. As those tip numbers went down like they have everywhere the pay went way down and the staff takeout had to be increased.

If you're talking about local daily/weekly tournaments you can just ask a couple of dealers whether they make the same dealing tournaments and cash. They probably won't give you a number but many will tell you whether it's close or whether, like many big casinos, they make almost nothing doing tournaments.

If it's a tour stop, we very much hope you'll give 1-2% on a decent score. If you win a lot and don't tip, expect that word may get around and you'll be looked down on. Whether that matters is up to you.

Whether it's a fee or optional add-on generally has to do with local laws/gaming regulations. They might not be able to require the fee so they make it "optional" but high value. Just pay it and consider it part of the rake.

answer, what happens when you win 10 hands in a row and then get felted on the last hand of a dealer's down?

This is a hole in this method for sure from the Dealer's point of view. I can't say that a Dealer or two (or six) hasn't suffered in this spot, but I will try to pull something from my pocket or tip the next time I run into that Dealer.

The spot you are describing, although certainly not impossible with my style, would be pretty rare. I see the same Dealers all the time, play quite often and (unfortunately) have a decent memory when it comes to short-term losses.

There are a few Dealers who acknowledge recent beats when I sit down. I certainly can't speak for them, but some of them acknowledge the method even if they don't see it as ideal. I do know that it has been a 'break room' discussion point. I would think it falls under the 'something is better than nothing' category for most Dealers. It might be an epic fail on my part but I don't sense any animosity from my regular Dealers, but it can be very obvious the first down through with some.

You can safely assume that I don't have any pure disciples that I'm aware of, but I have seen a few players toke a Dealer when they push at times when they see what I'm doing.

Believe me, if I was a better player then this would have very little negative vibe!! The up side is way better than the down coming from a winning player. The main issue is that I play a very aggressive style so I can dominate a lot of small pots with very little profit. It would be interesting to see a bunch of Nits implement.
GL

If there's an optional dealer/staff stack bonus or a percentage of the buy-in withheld from the prize pool, e.g., 3% in Atlantic City iirc, you've already tipped. It's completely up to you whether you want to double-tip.

Id encourage everyone to think about / ask about average downs in a tournament esp if it's a local type place.

You'd be really surprised how many downs it takes for a tournament and how little that actually translates into for an hourly wage for dealers dealing a tournament.

Yes you are tipping when you pay the dealer appreciation but it's often not much.

answer,

I am not saying this in a bad way so don't take it personally, but make no mistake that you are 'that guy' to all the dealers who deal for you and they all joke about you and the hoops you jump through to justify not tipping accordingly. I won't say any of them hate you(but some probably do), but make no mistake none of them like you. Especially if you are a regular in one location. You are the guy that the other players have to make up for tipping-wise.

If you are ok with that, fine, but just know that that is the case 100%. Professional dealers will never display that to your face, but you will always be 'that guy' to the entire dealer pool. They literally hate pushing you pots.

Here is some math to go along with that:

Had a guy recently win a 5-6 hour tournament that was 4-5 tables. So 5 dealers, down to 4, down to 3, etc down to finish.

He tipped $20 on a $960 win, which ends up being 2%. That then needs to be chopped up among all the dealers.

That is simply not sustainable, but many people just don't understand that.

In general (there are always exceptions)

Cash > Tournament Festivals > Daily Tournaments for tips.

Also true in terms of house revenue. Tournaments and festivals are a means to increase traffic to the room and the rest of the property that otherwise would not be there.

I appreciate your candor, no offense taken or I wouldn't put it out there for discussion. Hate is a strong word for me so you've found a button, I don't let my family use the word in any fashion without some serious discussion. You are smart enough to know that you can't use the words 'none' or 'all' or '100%' but it appears we've exhausted the discussion for now.


Not that it really matters .. but was that net or gross? This was a $80-100 tournament? Was there a Dealer add-on? I'm guessing there were about 32 downs in a 5 hour tournament based on losing a table every hour?

Really here nor there ... If I post a $1K win in a cash game I'm guessing that I'm tipping out upwards of $80 along the way. So lets assume I'm a break even player and didn't tip anything during the $1300 in losses. That puts me roughly at 3.5% tips, but I'm 'that guy' talked about in the break room? Or perhaps both of us are 'that guy' ... GL

Yes, we have exhausted this discussion. GL.

Your tournament post about tracking downs and dealers from above was also pretty wacky to the point it seemed like trolling, especially with trying to give specific dealers money on the side and leading them to get fired. So again, GL. I won't be discussing tipping with you any longer.

Assuming old man Bob has been dealing for many years, I don't think he has to wonder if and/or why he doesn't make as much as 21 year old Mellissa, that's just a given.

Also, based on what I've seen out of almost every old man dealer, clear performance expectations wouldn't be helping Bob's bottom line much anyways.

Nobody should get fired for receiving a tip 'on property'. I was simply pointing out that Dealers 'can' get fired if a player tries to offer them compensation 'off the property'.

I can tip whomever whatever I want at a cash table as long as the word 'tournament' isn't tied to the toke. GL

Tipping is a serious topic, one that I don't take lightly .. and apparently a large group of players takes seriously as well per this 'fairly' reliable story ...

Dealer wins $700K (so $280K) BBJ at competing casino only 20 miles away or so ... 'only' tips $400. Word gets back to 'home' casino and now players wont tip him one red cent. Dealer ends up quitting due to severe drop in income as a result.

How 'bout them apples in a 'small' poker community? GL