Those are my feelings. If you disagree (and you clearly do) that's fine. I'm not going to change your mind, and there's no way I could justify myself to your satisfaction.

I was playing 1-2 NL the other day and had AA in MP. I raised to $10 (a standard preflop raise) and everyone folded, so all I got was the blinds. A short while later another player raised to $10 preflop with AA and got re-raised by KK. Both players were all-in preflop, the AA held up, and the player doubled up his stack. Do you think he deserved to double up for playing his AA exactly the same way I played mine a short while earlier? It's not like I had a particularly tight image at the table. The timing just wasn't right.

To your other question, I think that there is no reasonable justification for a player to berate or cuss out anyone else at the table, whether it's a dealer or another player.

No. Specifically, how much per hour do you think you are worth in the box? No tips, no jackpots, just a base hourly. How much?

Now wait a minute... you really don't want to go down the road of "does a poker player deserve..." do you?

But I suppose you are trying to illustrate that since you both played AA the same way, either he deserved less or you deserved more? Does that mean your sense of entitlement extends to the other side of the poker table, too?

I'll tell you this much. You both put money in the pot and won. You deserve the money that's in the pot - how much is in there doesn't have any significance as to who deserves what. You both deserve the money that's in the pot. The dealer didn't put any money into the pot. He doesn't deserve any of it. If someone wants to give him some of it, then that's his prerogative.

This thread is mostly the views of minority players and dealers. As for a dealers self entitled attitudes that's there job. They took a job based on tips that's what they were promised. If you ask me a 20000 dollar tip is excessive on any amount of a jackpot. But that's not to say they do not deserve anything. As for players if you feel the dealers deserve nothing from your bbj that's fine but you will be ridiculed and labeled cheap. Sorry nature of the beast from what I've seen even from other players. Sorry for any grammar issues or run ons tip me better and ill take that writing course.

Despicable is a pretty strong word, no? Combined with having no grounds to find the action despicable makes it a very strong word.

Basically, what you've been telling us is that we should tip well because we should feel sorry that you make $4.35/hr, and if someone were to scoop up $100K jackpot, then they should feel even worse because they just made $99,995.65 more than you did over the passing hour?

How much do you make in a year in tips? Since you're happy and proud to tell us you make $4.35/hr in an attempt to tug at our heartstrings, give us the entire story.

Bottom line in my experience: show me a dealer that never gambles on anything (BJ, poker, craps, scratchers, whatever), and I'll show you a dealer content making $1 per hand.

Dealers,

I'm sure you report all of your tips to the federal government for tax purposes.

I mean, of course.

Anybody who works at a tribal casino does. We are forced to report our earnings every night as we cash out. We are taxed on the full amount.

Good point. I did win the money in that pot. There was this other time that I flopped a set and was all in on the turn. And the villain got his inside straight on the river to win all of my chips. This was shortly after the exact same scenario happened to another guy at my table except his set held up...

I'm required to count out all of my tips in front of a supervisor, under the camera, and all I get at the end of my shift is a receipt. I get a paycheck every other Friday that includes my hourly wages and my tips, both of which have been taxed.

I don't want to ignore your questions.

To the first question, I don't see how answering it will further this thread in any way. Unless your plan is to gauge whether or not you can afford to hire me to deal for you in a private game, that is. If so, send me a private message and we can negotiate my hourly rate.

To the second question, I make probably a little bit more than the average dealer at my casino in a year, but a lot of that has to do with the favorable schedule I have in terms of working a lot of hours. If that's not a good enough answer for you, I'll save you the effort of typing your reply by stating that the exact amount is really not any of your business and I have no intention of ever giving out a dollar amount. I make enough to pay my bills and to save some money on the side for things I want but don't need. And I'm happy with the job I have and with the wages I receive. The majority of the players in my room acknowledge and respect the custom of tipping dealers for the service they provide & they appreciate having me on the table, just as I am happy to deal to them 5 nights a week.

And the mention of $4.35/hr has nothing to do with tugging at heartstrings and everything to do with demonstrating that tips are a necessity for any dealer. But that should be obvious to anyone who's ever played in an American casino more than a handful of times & to everyone who frequents this message board.

Honestly, I'd have preferred if you just ignored the questions altogether rather than giving me the post I expected.

Yes, we know dealers make a low base wage. As you say, "but that should be obvious to anyone who's ever played in an American casino more than a handful of times & to everyone who frequents this message board."

In other words, you agree there was no reason to state how little your base hourly is since it's obvious to everyone here... ergo, trying to make us tip out of empathy for your dire situation.

You really are unwilling to put a dollar amount on what you are worth as a dealer? I think that has a lot to do with everything in this thread when you keep tossing the word deserve around.

What's your point? That guy deserved to win all your chips; he put all of his money in the pot which was the price to draw out on you. He deserves the pot. If he lost the pot, then that was the cost of putting all his money in on a draw, and you deserve the pot. Basically, whoever has the best hand at showdown (or if all opponents fold) deserves the pot. As a dealer, you should know this, yes?

Why is the need for knowing how much a dealer makes so important? Is that how you justify not tipping? By that logic I shouldn't pay my mechanic because I think he makes enough. Just saying its getting off topic and I would like to hear reasons for not tipping instead of how much dealers make.

If a dealer is rude,full of mistakes,comments on the way hands are played,or just plain slow that's a reason not to tip. If there's any more reasons beside its my pot and the dealer gets none of it. I would like to hear it. And yes dealers do report tips.

Very much doubt this gets answered. The average employee in the USA without a college degree makes what, maybe $15 an hour? There's a reason it's so hard to get into dealing. Heck, when is the last time you heard of a dealer quitting (obv happens but it's rare)? Considering the qualifications necessary it might be the job title with the least turnover out there. Most jobs that require a similar skill set/background are an absolute revolving door. What is the typical dealer's second best option? Realistically, how hard is it to replace the typical dealer with someone that's going to do basically the same thing (since someone brought up pro athletes in their argument, lol). A dealer isn't going to answer those questions and then apply something reasonable to a tipping/wage scale...

Tipping standards are ridiculous. They're insane at higher stakes (and for things like jackpots).

I already stated why. When people say they "deserve" something and that something is our money that we risked, than it's relevant to know how much value they put in their jobs when they expect our money. He already stated that $4.35 is too little and $500/hr is too much.

Basically, it's an exercise in illustrating that if a dealer is really honest with himself, $1-$2 a hand on top of a small base wage is making good money for the job requirements. I know dealers that make $40K-$50K a year and feel lucky to do so. They also don't gamble at all, which is a pretty key difference.

We've already stated that we think $1-$2 is fine per hand, regardless of pot size or jackpot considerations. Stop trying to imply we don't tip.

Your mechanic says it's $300 to do your brakes. If you agree, then pay it; if you don't, then go somewhere else or do it yourself for $60. If you don't feel the mechanic deserves $300, then don't buy his services.

Personally, the system in place would make more sense if everyone tipped at the end of a dealer's down, regardless if they won a hand or not. This would ensure a dealer will work a solid down instead of now, where brainless people just tip blindly even when a dealer pushes their pot to someone else and they have to sort things out.

It isn't too difficult to figure out how this custom came about (that is, specifically tipping only on winning hands) and when you think about it for 30 seconds, it makes no sense.

How do you justify tipping? How do you justify what you are calling the expected amount? I damn sure look at the cost of labor when I pay for car repairs (and I certainly don't voluntarily give my mechanic any extra money) why can't someone who's in a position to contribute additional funds be expected to examine the cost/wage?

Who cares what you would like to hear. The reason for not tipping is because it costs the tipper money. When I want money from somebody that doesn't have to give me any I think the onus is on me to convince him not the other way around, no? Give me a reason you aren't going to ship me some funds on merge. Is that how it works?

Insulting a persons career. Honestly how much lower can you go? The next best option is advancing to floor supervisor,to lead supervisor,to shift manager,to director. Oh but maybe they are beneath you also because I'm sure your curing cancer when not playing poker.

How is it insulting? It's a pretty typical way to determine if somebody is getting good value or not. It's how I evaluate my own opportunities. It's also the general way most employers decide how to compete for employees (as it makes sense). I'm sure that's not what you want to hear though as obviously you're compensated very well.

Who insulted a person's career?

It doesn't take an advanced degree in mathematics to deal cards. That's just the nature of the job. How is stating the obvious insulting?

Apparently I read that wrong. I do not put dealers in a pro athlete category but to insinuate that its in the category of a mcjob that's absurd. I feel we get paid fairly from the generosity of other people. We do more than pitch cards you know( well good ones anyway ).

Your right its pretty easy. But some nights its a pain in the ass

I didn't put it in either category. I asked what the second best option is...if it's a mcjob those are your words not mine. Athletes were brought up to mention scarcity being another determination in wages (as a counterpoint to someone bringing up an NBA bench player, it's just not a fair comparison). It's hard to replace professional athletes so they end up getting paid quite a bit more than their second best option. Most positions, including poker dealer, aren't so hard to replace so looking at where their second best option rates is a pretty good starting point...

Isn't that what you'd do as an employer? If an employee's second best option pays x wouldn't you offer them something like maybe 1.1x? You wouldn't offer them 4x. I'd hope not anyway you'd get the exact same employees you'd get at 1.1x and lose an awful lot of money. That's why it's fair to bring up related fields/skill levels/backgrounds/requirements/duties/etc and their compensation. I suspect dealers do very, very well if you look at it from this angle though so obviously it's not good for the "more tips" side.

I apologize I'm reading this thread in an " attacking the dealers manner" seeing that's not the case here now. You are right but our employer relies on the consumer to pay our salaries( no fault of mine or yours). The casino relies on you to reward performance. When I look at it from that view I see your argument. But you also go fully aware of how it operates. You do win from me I have no answer for why the tip should depend on the size of the pot.... Nothing here sorry fellow dealers.

There's no need to apologize and there's nothing wrong with being proud of your job obv. I just think when people start arguing and putting specific amounts up (like $1-2/pot...or x% on a jackpot, or whatever) they should be willing to realistically look at what that amount ends up being and the like. Not a big fan of the "it's custom...tip more!" line that's all. Nobody is saying dealers are bums who should all starve to death it's just strange to me to have a discussion where some numbers, from the player's tipping perspective, are called small and cheap and the like and then nobody wants to look into what those numbers actually are.

Again, certainly didn't mean to offend or demean (and really don't think I did) and apologize myself if so I just think dealers should be careful when they throw out all the nasty words over a guy who voluntarily ships them money if they're not ready to listen to why some people feel those numbers are fair/generous and have a realistic discussion. It's ugly on both sides when it's just "$5 on that huge pot! what a cheapskate bum!" and the insults lobbed back at the dealers. It's better to actually try to look at it for what it is imo.