I am trying to figure out if every club outside of the South Bay Area is run by complete incompetents.

Bay101, Garden City, and Lucky Chances all require their dealers to put out a minimum number of hands per down. The tapes are reviewed and dealers advised when they consistently do not meet their targets.

The management seem to understand that more hands translates into more income for the house.

Apparently every other club in the country hasn't figured it out yet.

I am thinking the best way to tip is to give every dealer $1 at the end of their round win lose or draw. If everyone did this dealers would make $18 to $20 per hr in tips which to me sounds about right on top of their base pay (dont ask me why I think this feels right, other than to say at $20 per hr equals $40K per year on top of a base pay of I am guessing $7 per hour would amount to $54,000 a year assuming 2,000 hours of work per year, which again to me sounds about right). Assumption is that delaer is competent and reasonbly nice and my expereince is that 95% fall into this category.

Here is how I actually tip. When playing 2/5 I usually tip a dollar on any pot where there is a flop and will tip 2 or 3 dollars if the pot gets to around $400 or 500 or more. I recently moved dowm to 1/2 and have modified because tipping a dollar everytime you win a 20 dollar pot is a killer (you have paid 2 dollars rake and depoending how many players usually 5 to 10 dollars is your own money. Now I will tip for the first small pot I win and skip the next small pot (less than $40 or so).


Playing a loose agressive style, tipping after every hand where there is a flop adds-up.

Please offer us the historical origins of the tipping culture and I will meanwhile try and do the same.

One time I saw a player encourage everyone at the table to not tip a particular dealer; he just stated out loud to the entire table as the dealer sat "this is the worst dealer in Vegas--don't tip him". Dealer didn't say a word at the time, but after he was pushed 30 minutes later the floor came over and yanked that player out of his seat, took him to the side, and told him this is his one and only warning to knock it off if he wanted to keep playing in that room.

Encouraging others to tip less at the table is grounds for expulsion and banishment.

kowboykiller, after reading your posts, and seeing how adamant you are about not tipping, my advice to you is this... please, keep your dollar. You clearly need it way more than we do.

Someone said something about increasing our wage and eliminating tipping. I would be all for this. I could actually work out a budget, rather than guessing within $300 or so what I will make every two weeks. But, if you go a few pages back, you'll read why this isn't possible with the current rake system. You, the players, would end up paying more in the long run to support our triple to quadruple incomes.

You don't think dealers are all aware of who the stiffs are?


1) In alot of casinos, floors cannot accept tips. 2) Bothering a floor, because you don't like the way your cards were pitched to you, won't do you any favors. Nits annoy everyone. The only ripple effect you've caused is one for yourself. At this point, you've missed hands, have been placed in "lobby," and have managed to annoy casino employees at 2 levels. Not good when you need a comp/table change/etc.

If you tip $1, you're down $1. If you tip $5, you're down $5. What's your point? You're arguing for non-tippers, but when it comes to tipping, you're in favor of tipping more. Is it just bias against dealers? You're argument is a little confusing.

Then don't get all stuffy when a tipper is chosen over you. If you're truely this tight with your money (yet you choose to walk into a casino with it.. funny) I sincerely hope you go broke so you can't continue to leech off the sevice other people's generosity provides.


Why would a dealer take it out on everyone because of one cheap person? Hitting you in the knuckles with the cards on the next deal isn't going to affect anyone else lol.

Here's the great thing: I don't have to call my friends to organize a game, I can go to a cardroom and play in one whenever I want! IDK why not tipping would prevent me from playing in a casino, but who am I to argue with your logic.

For the record, I never said it was cool, I just believe not tipping works for me because I like having more money to add to my bottom line.

If I played nosebleeds I would probably tip pretty well, because tipping would be such a minuscule% of my hourly. As it stands, tipping would make up 10%-30% depending on what limits I am playing. That's almost like lighting money on fire, IN MY OPINION. You can tip however whenever you want, and I am not going to tell you that you are wasting money because it's your ****ing money.




Just curious, do you think that you can tip too much? IMO If you think X amount may be too much, then maybe you can see why $1 over and over would be too much. If you think any amount is fine, then $0 is also fine. If you think $1 is just enough, then you think dealers aren't worth more.

I have a funny/awkward tipping story to share.

Note: I don't tip if I take a pot down preflop. All other times I always tip $1.

I go to play in a home game for the first time where everyone is very friendly with each other and everyone there either know each other or are good friends. (except me)

I have dealer is the wife of the person running the home game. She is very loud, obnoxious and has a terrible ghetto attitude. I noticed everyone is always tipping her $2, $3 and sometimes even $5 in every single pot! Which to me was ridiculous because she was not only a horrible dealer (anytime I had a big decision and i thought for more then 20 seconds she would tell me to hurry up) but tipping $3-$5 is ridiculous.

Then it happened. I was winning a good amount of pots all night and I always tipped her $1 even tho I didn;t want to. Then it happened... utg raised to $8 and there were about 6 callers. I was in the big blind and decided to pick up the ~$50 worth of dead money with a big bet bluff. It worked and she pushed me the pot. Since I dont tip If i win a pot preflop I didn't. And she is sitting there waiting for me to tip her, and she says "wheres my tip" I look at her in shock and say I dont tip if theres no flop. and she makes some smart ass comment demanding that I tip her, I refuse and she calls me a ******* and now everyone at the table hates me and thinks im a cheap *******.

Needless to say, I rake up my chips and leave and never return.

A dealer would take it out by dealing less hands, by complaining, and thats how they affect the table with it. I could care less how I get my cards because I am still getting my cards! LOL I don't remember saying "If he pitches them to me badly its going to affect the table!"

The times I do tip (yeah, I do sometimes) tip dealers, is when I think they deserve it. Some people think they deserve it everytime they get a pot pushed towards them, and that's fine. But with such a negative attitude towards non tippers like the one you've expressed you'd never get a tip, where someone like Pailmax would get tipped even by nitty old me because they try to do their best regardless of circumstance.

I still find it absolutely fascinating to read, over and over, how some players in this thread continue to seriously believe -- absolutely religiously -- there should always be *zero correlation* between service and compensation.

Think about that.

It is ludicrous on its face.


q/q

... thereby leaving the game with one less strong player, making it a better game for every other player at the table.


q/q

I think the argument is where the compensation comes from.

The overhead for micromanaging hands-per-down is *extremely* high, both in terms of infrastructure investment (ie: installing Genesis Bravo system, etc) and in terms of the labor costs for oversight and administration.

And, even so, the minimum average hands-per-down that the average $8/hr dealer can be expected to provide is *very* low compared to what a properly-compensated and seasoned professional dealer is capable of providing.


q/q

Security cameras are already there and the tapes.
Most employees come up for quarterly review anyway.
Pop in a couple of tapes. Fast forward through the downs and count the hands. Right, huge investment.

And if the claims that some dealers consistently put out 10 fewer hands per hour, that would be 60 a day. 300 a week. At say and average rake of $4. $1200 a week lost to the house because of a slow dealer. Right, spending some money to weed out those dealers would be a waste.

*very* low. Give me a break. After 6 mos, dealers were expected to get out 40 hands/hr in LHE. And they dealt every poker game/limit in the house.

It is a fallacy that a room should/would put up with one dealer putting out half the hands that a good dealer does. I also think it is a fallacy that there are many dealers who actually go that slow. Yes, I hear the claims here, but I seriously doubt if anybody actually clocked the dealers.

One poster involved in counting tokes (ie actual facts and figures) wouldn't claim more than 10% insrease for the best dealers.

And the idea that the tipping system will ensure only the best dealers will stay? Where do all you people play? No deadbeat dealers? No Chatty Kathy's? I wonder where all the complaints about dealers come from. Ok. I guess they all come from rooms where dealers pool tips.

Next time you are playing, watch and count. See how much more an A+ dealer makes per down over a C dealer.

Maybe other parts of the country are different, but I rarely see dealers "stiffed" in anything but a chop/minimal pot. It is like a conditioned reflex. Drag pot. Toss tip.

Again, I tip. I do not discourage people from tipping. But I am tired of the BS coming out of one side of this argument.

What rooms have you worked in? Seriously, even larger rooms (with actual *resources*) rarely engage in this kind of review. There is so much variation from game-to-game and table-to-table that a quick random sampling is never adequate to give a full picture of an employee's performance. It actually requires a significant time investment to separate the consistently weak performers from the rest of the field. And even then, that assumes that the weak performers are not "protected" for other reasons (ie: tribal members, friends of management, young attractive female, etc).

You'd be surprised how expensive the up-front investment is.

40 hands/hr?

LMAO.

Not one house in the country enforces a minimum that high.

You're in Arizona, right? Name the house. Certainly not any of the big tribal casinos, and certainly not Harrah's.


q/q

Great. But if it's that inconsequential to you, why all the fuss?? Or are you just looking out for my financial needs as you expect others to do for you? Bless you.

Support claims imo

EDIT
Also, as a dealer, if you really believe your own words, why wouldn't you lobby for such a system if you really believe it would be personally advantageous? Again, support your claims.

I don't think anyone truly thinks that. The difference is some think it is the vendor's management's responsibility to compensate its employees, while others believe it is the consumer's responsibility to compensate the vendor's employees.

Everyone has to negotiate the best deal possible for themselves. Some believe tipping is in their best personal interest and others don't think so. And many tip because they feel a customary obligation as "everyone else is doing it."

EDIT
Fairness is a matter of perspective. A wage one finds fair another will not. You can't expect others to make sure that you feel your wage is fair. You have to fight for the wage you think is fair.

EDIT EDIT (slow pony)
Bingo

Haven't found any solid sources from my brief google of historical origins of tipping, but here are some general criticisms - most of which have been addressed itt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_%28...#Circumstances

Please note that these criticisms don't even come from a "criticisms" subsection.

EDIT
Here's a small bit about the origins of tipping in the U.S. Doesn't seem to have much to do w/ meritocracy at all.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

To be fair, there is misinformation in the article, such as the T.I.P. backronym (Wikipedia explains away that one). But the author does, albeit lackadaisically, cite his source in the American origins bit.

EDIT EDIT
Here's another brief one, also suggesting unmeritorious orgins:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

Quote:
Someone said something about increasing our wage and eliminating tipping. I would be all for this. I could actually work out a budget, rather than guessing within $300 or so what I will make every two weeks. But, if you go a few pages back, you'll read why this isn't possible with the current rake system. You, the players, would end up paying more in the long run to support our triple to quadruple incomes.


Because then he would have to pay taxes on all of his income like the rest of us. And he knows there is no way a casino is going to pay dealers an hourly wage that is more than they pay their floors who make $16-$22 an hour on average.

As a customer, I care very little about the compensation of the employees providing my service, I only care about the product being delivered. What your casino pays you, my car-wash pays the guys with towels, or what Doctor's Associates pays their "sandwich artists" is immaterial to me.

The thing we expect a high correlation between is not your salary but the cost of the good or service we pay for and its quality. When you buy an iPad, you do not care how much the guy at the Foxconn plant in Shenzhen makes.

It's $6 per half hour for poker, $17.99 for the best car wash in town, $5 on special for a sandwich, and $829 for the top-of-the-line iPad.

If you charged me more for those things, I'd want a better product. That's where I expect a high correlation regarding service.

---

Now, in the abstract, do I think I get better service from higher paid employees? In some cases, yes; in other cases, no. Often the baseline for performance is set, and people meet it regardless of what they get paid. I don't think a union guy making $40 an hour does an inherently better job than a non-union guy making $20 to do the same job.

If people are given the ability to hustle to earn extra money, some will, and some will be happy doing the minimum to get the baseline. I get that poker dealers can hustle to make extra money (and the good "hustle" here), but in the end, my agreement is with the casino. If I don't get enough hands per hour, I decide if it's worth the $12/hour I pay to sit in the chair -- the tips to a dealer aren't nearly as much of a factor. If you, the casino, employ bad dealers, I'll go somewhere else.

Out in the real job force, people do a good job because they want to demonstrate to the people that employ them that they're capable of doing more, and they're the sort of people deserving of raises and promotions. ...oh, and because most of us have a good work ethic. We always do our best. [We try to always do our best, anyway...]

Here we go. History of tipping in USA begins p. 5. Confirms info in previously posted links.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...st_tipping.pdf




Elucidating example!

Question for the dealer here: Do you think the size of the pot should affect your tip? Not trying to be a jerk or condescending. I just always felt the size of the pot should be irrelevant.

I alway tip the same $1 on every hand. That includes $1000 pots, $3 pots and chopped pots. Even if I lost $1 b/c of the rake you would still get a buck from me.

On the other hand I will tip more if I take an inordinate amount of time on a decision. I will toss some extra if I have to ask for a floor decision(sometimes even if its not me who called the floor). This is b/c I know you are missing tips that you could be getting if the hand had went smoothly.

I try to avoid rooms w/a jackpot drop but I will always give dealers 10% of any jackpot I win.

I have had dealers roll their eyes b/c I tipped them what they deemed too small. I have also had dealers try to toss me my tip back on a tiny pot, such as the blinds only. I always give it back.

On a fun note, one day I purposely wouldnt tip the dealers when I won a pot. i would then ask them if i got them to see what their response would be. If they said y"es, thank you" they got $5. If they said no they got $1. My favorite answer was "I dont remember"

What is your typical response when someone forgot to tip then asks if they got you?

I agree with this. The size of the pot is less relevant to me than the time it takes to play out the hand. This is simply because quantity (in the long run) is more important than the size of an individual tip. If someone tips me big on a big pot I appreciate it. If I push a $1k pot and get a dollar then I appreciate it and try to get as many hands in as possible to make up for the time lost. I would probably throw back a tip if I know that you lost money due to the rake. But if you threw it back to me I would keep them from that point on. I have had people that tip me after a down when they are on a loosing session because they think I do a good job and they wanted to get me even though I didn't push them a pot.

This is a tough one for a lot of dealers I suspect because you don't want to seem like you're hustling tips by saying no. I always say yes if they did tip and something to the effect of "I believe so" if they did not tip. Personally I think "I don't remember" is the worst thing you can say. As a player, it would make me feel like my tipping is not appreciated enough to be remembered 10 seconds down the road.