In Japan they don't allow tipping. Theirs is a much less contentious culture.

One negative aspect of tipping that nobody really talks about is very well represented by this thread itself. The practice of tipping generates controversy and ill will. The time and energy spent debating and fighting about tips is, in addition to the harm of people being over and under paid, a hidden cost of tipping. Every fight I have almost got into in a poker room has been over tipping. Yes I will drag a 2k pot and tip 2 bucks. No I do not think what dealers do should command a high salary.

I really don't see why, if a casino advertised "no tipping allowed" and paid the dealers a decent wage for their skill (say 17 per and 8 per hour more effective with benefits), that casino would not be mobbed. So much money is being wasted on tips and the fish probably tip better than winning players so it really depresses the poker economy. Professional poker players should be the biggest anti-tip guys around.

Dealers do a fairly simple job. If anything complex comes up they simply call the floor. They do not deserve the same salary as those who make critical decisions or handle a alot of complexity.

Here is just a question to throw out there. What job outside of a casino is about the same difficulty of being a poker dealer?

Here's a concrete example of simple, pure greed that I know you're aware of.

Gila River offers a $50 splash-pot during the wee hours of grave yard for the high hand every hour or 90-minutes or so. During that time, any table running generates at least $100 in rake, and multiple tables stay running.

We both know that (a) that $50 came out of the "promotional fund," which is what the jackpot rake pays for, and that (b) they're not doing us any favors by offering up the $50. They only care that they keep a table running as late as possible so that it doesn't break down before the early-morning folk show up. And they don't do that as a favor to the morning players -- they do that to keep raking at least $100 an hour from 4am to 8am.

If they wanted to do US a favor, they'd drop the rake by a couple bucks...

...or, better yet, how about CAZ using the "player promotional fund" to pay overlays on tournaments?

So, cash-only players get what percentage of that?

Deuces, it's harder than you think. Physically it often isn't easy, and there's more involved mentally than you might realize. You're also responsible for a lot, and anything that goes wrong gets blamed on you and earns you the hate of anyone involved in a controversial issue at the table - just look at all the rants about dealers in the B+M section of this site.

No one is saying it's rocket science and no one is saying they should make $250,000 a year or get tipped $7 a hand or get $600 in a given night or whatever. You're going way overboard in ranting about what they make and deserve. They deserve a fair wage like anyone else, and often what ends up coming off the table in tips isn't a major dent to the equity on the table at all.

You're about the 300,000th person to make the point about paying a full salary instead of small salary+tips. Cute idea, and has some benefits, but it has detriments as well, and regardless it isn't happening anytime soon. Thus, the current system will go on.

The fact that you claim to repeatedly get into fights about tipping in poker rooms is bizarre. I don't remember ever seeing this occur, and I'm not even sure in what fashion it would occur other than some loud, generous tipper mocking someone they considered a tightwad. However, it appears this happens to you routinely. This may say more about you than it does about the tipping culture. if you're tipping $2 on a $2000 pot, this also says a lot about you, not the custom.

You sound like the type of guy who hasn't had fun at the table since 2004 because you're too obsessed with winrates and perfect procedure to enjoy yourself, honestly.

What these comments say about you is a lot.

Again, the pro-tipping mafia resort to name calling and insults.

Nice.

Your kind keep saying "tip what you want" and then smear anyone who has the audacity to say they ONLY tip $2 on a pot.

To me, the one telling everybody how to spend their money is the one without a life.

Funny enough, I've actually been uber-supportive of your comments in this thread, but I guess me telling someone that tipping $2 on $2000 is enough to make you fly off the handle. Hope you're nice and irate about my membership in the "pro-tipping mafia". Must be a big group, since 99.999999% of people in a casino would be more generous than this.

I'm glad to you that someone making standard, reasonable comments is the one with no life. The same could be said about someone who becomes angry as hell over me making a comment (which included neither name calling nor insults, despite you dumbly posting that it did) over someone's .1% tip.

By the way, nice cherry pick. Make sure to completely ignore the top half of my post, while cutting and pasting the part which allows you to do what you do best, which is to try and come off as the wise, holier than thou know it all here.

The same could be said of a cashier at McDonalds. Frankly, I think most of the rants about dealers are justified. They work with thousands of dollars of real money and make mistakes on a regular basis. Imagine if tellers at a bank made mistakes with your transactions as often as dealers do.

It is unacceptable to make mistakes when handling someone else's money, period. The fact that it's rare to hear of bank tellers making financial mistakes, while dealer screw ups are a dime-a-dozen, suggests that many poker dealers are careless, incompetent, or both. Until they become more responsible the only fair wage they deserve is the same as the cashier at McDonalds - minimum wage.

They really don't make that many major mistakes. Your perception of it is higher than it actually is because you're on a site like this where the only time you hear about them is when they do something wrong. People focus on the small number of mistakes they saw and forget that they sat for a 250 hand session with 9-10 players in every hand placing multiple bets each one, and that 99.5% of the time nothing goes wrong. Players make dumb errors at a rate which has to be 50x that of dealers.

Sometimes I think the 2p2ers who frequent B+M couldn't care less about winning money, enjoying themselves, or being happy playing cards, they simply want procedural or rules disasters to occur so that they have something to complain about. There are people here in this forum who clearly have a lopsided ratio when it comes to time spent tracking rules violations versus time spent focusing on poker.

To say that dealers deserve minimum wage is comical. It's not a $7.25 or whatever it is per hour job. As far as the exchange earlier with Angus, who has actually made really good points in this thread, I'm trying to keep it civil, it's just strange to rely on "tip whatever you want, it's a personal choice" because that defeats the purpose of the thread existing.

Let me explain this again one more time, You people who play dont get to make business descions for casinos Fact 1 poker rooms make the least amount of money Fact 2 if they have to pay A decent wage 20 to 30 dollars an hour or so its coming out of your pocket {secureity and barbacks and other labor make 12 to 15 in union shops so that is what is in line.} Not the casinos They will close room otherwise YOU WILL PAY MORE RAKE PERIOD!! You people think you can dictate to billioniares STUPID STUPID STUPID The rich run the world and there not in business to make less or lose money. By not tipping you are not hurting the casino they pay us dealers from 4 to 7 dollars a hour the rest is from tips and those of you who think us as sub human or below you is just arrogant crap I have a IQ of 180 and MBA {although I stink at spelling} I used to be a fin planner for 20 years I enjoy what I do and I play regularlly and dont treat people like crap.

Is there another definition for a person who does not tip? I did a quick search and found very few definitions. Maybe you can find more....I'm not that interested myself. "Stiff" is used the most and proper for folks who don't tip in my opinion.

Noun: A customer, usually at a restaurant or casino, that refuses to tip after being serviced

Verb: Fail to leave (someone) a tip

Verb: (Slang) to fail or refuse to tip (a waiter, porter, etc.).

I don't think the word "stiff" is inherently derogatory, though I can see how some might think that.

If a dealer is a complete jackass and I don't want to tip him, I'd say "Yeah I stiffed that *******. He had a horrible attitude and didn't deserve a tip". That doesn't make ME a bad guy. It's the dealer who f'ed up and lost out.

So let's not sugar coat it. If you don't tip, you ARE stiffing them. But it's your choice to do so or not and WHY you will or will not, so do what you want.

I've recently started playing in a local 1/2 bar game. In Wyoming "home game" poker is legal as long as no rake, drop or time charge is made to the "house". If so, the game is considered to be illegal and violating Wyoming State Law.

The game has a main table for 10 players, and as others arrive they start a must-move table. Some nights (they play twice a week) there can be 3 tables running, but mostly only a single table runs with a short-handed must-move. The game starts around 7PM, but lately has started as early as 5:30PM since some show up earlier and earlier if the table is full when they get there. Game shuts down at 2AM and on occasion will move to a local poker club if the game is good and getting wild.

Most are playing for fun and recreation, some are morons thinking they are good enough to one day roll into Vegas as a reincarnated Mike McDermott, some fish/donkey's along with a few older nits.

The games are dealt and run by a three local guys, one being the head of security for the bar. All have regular jobs and will play in the games if they aren't dealing. They'll average $450-$600 PER NIGHT in tips alone from the main table! I've seen them tipped $75-$100 for a hand and they'll generally get between $2-$5 per hand. Some hands $10-$15. I know for a fact they are pulling this as they've spoken about it, and have counted out the tips. They'll stack the chips in front of them as they get them.

I'll tip $1-$2 most pots and on large pots $3. Last week a fellow to my right wins a $300 pot and tosses the dealer two reds ($10) and the guy to his right makes the comment to him, "You won over $300 and only tipped him $10?" then the argument ensued and a tipping class started at the table. I never said a word, but the rest of the table thought he was cheap for only tipping $10.

If a dealer wants to make more money, come to Wyoming and start a local bar game each evening.

Thread has now officially sunk into the mire.

Casino Arizona *did this*, last August IIRC. They dropped the rake on all overnight games to $2, even on full tables.

It was a complete and utter failure.

The overnight game -- which used to run 20+ tables -- crashed to less than five.

The idea was abandoned after one month. The players didn't care about the rake, but they damn well cared about losing the overnight jackpot promos.

As I've said, tip nits and rake nits should not run poker rooms, they do not understand how to build a game.


q/q

i always tip - but I always tip the same. If I win and it's a massive pot I tip a dollar. If I steal the blinds preflop (w/out seeing a flop) I tip a dollar. If the pot is chopped - I tip. It's always a dollar - no more - no less.

The problem came one night that I won a HUGE pot - the dealer had to shift it to me in five strokes. I tipped a dollar. The table got kinda p'o'ed at me. I said I tip when you guys don't and explained the strategy above. It didn't matter - the berating continued.

Am I off - is my toking standards bad? I tip the cage, I tip the waitresses - the vallet's ...

As evident, tipping is never enough.

I know players who do The same thing. They will tip me when they get just get back their BB. They are HUGE tippers IMO since they tip every single time. The table as wrong.

Pretty reasonable IMO considering the times you are tipping on tiny 3xBB or 5xBB pots that most people aren't, seems like this compensates fairly for the times you tip the same on bigger pots, which don't occur all that frequently anyway

There isn't a good McDonalds employee who couldn't be a good dealer within what, maybe 6 weeks? It's a job that takes next to no education, training, or experience for a person with anything approaching reasonable aptitude to be proficient at. The next best comparable job for most dealers is a $10/hr or less job that's a fact no matter who gets on here talking about having 180 iq's and deciding to pitch cards instead of curing cancer.

To the 99.99999% will tip more than $2 on 2K well 99.9999% don't regularly play 2K pots. Flat out embarrassing the lengths you guys go to when complaining about middle and high stakes players when you spit on their face for being more than generous. If I tip you a red bird for dealing a $20 pot or dealing a $20,000 pot wtf is the difference you got $5 for 2 minutes of unskilled soft labor and you wonder why instead of just shipping you a car every year $2, $5 whatever at a time and getting spit on for it a guy decides to just say **** you.

I have no idea, I never put much thought into whether or not people at McDonald's would be able to be successful at dealing cards. Apparently you have. FWIW, at least try and be creative and not cliched-to-the-core, use some other company than McDonald's, the whole "do you want fries with that" BS is old, tired, and boring.

You sit here spouting your ideas about the intellectual requirements of certain jobs, and putting people down who make their living a certain way because in your eyes, they aren't at your level. This is rather ironic, because the above is virtually unreadable, nonsensical, and doesn't even come together in complete, coherent sentences. The bolded part doesn't even come close to making sense.

What do you do for a living?

Meh, your philosophy is generous and makes sense. So you've either gotta stick to your guns and not care what people think or care what people think and use a strategy that costs no more but creates less friction. I wouldn't consider this a hill worth dying on, so i'd just stop tipping for the <$20 pots and tip a nickel on $2k. Better to keep the table good-natured.

It's the same as mickeyg13 above. It's good to be innovative but at some point you're fixing a problem that no one else perceives as a problem.

One thing i know: Trying to "explain the strategy above" is at best fruitless, at worst -EV. Do you really want the table perceiving you as someone who ponders tip structures?

How are they ideas it's a fact. Do you take six years of university to deal or a six week course? It's a job that requires very little training or education, is not particularly physically demanding or dangerous, and requires no uncommon skill. How is stating that fact putting anybody down or saying they aren't at my level? I'm saying their expectations regarding tipping and its relationship to pot size is ridiculous. They are providing semi-skilled labor at best in good conditions expecting to get paid like someone in a field that requires extensive education or skill just because the color of the chips changes. That's insane and is the #1 reason most players who play those stakes give up on tipping I can guarantee it's why I did. I might not write to your standards but I'll tell you it didn't take flipping too many red birds and being made to feel like I just raped the guy's mother rather than paying him 10 times more than what people in fields with similar requirements make out of my own pocket to figure out that spot isn't worth it to me.

As to the post it's a message board I wasn't drafting a legal document. The above simply states that when you trash guys for tipping you $2 for flipping over some cards it's no surprise that you get stiffed. Sorry if you can't figure that out I don't write for a living but I can usually figure stuff out. Maybe that's why I don't pitch cards and feel entitled enough to spit at a $2 tip for 2 minutes of work and then play debate club grammar and composition hero in my spare time.

So when I was cashing out the other day I noticed the guy in front of me tip a dollar to the cashier. It had not come to mind for me to tip the cashier and I am wondering if that is standard practice? I don't want to be known at C-Town as the cheap skate that doesn't tip the cashier.

1) It essentially takes the same amount of time and effort to spell something correctly, or formulate a sentence correctly, as it does to do it incorrectly. We're talking simply words and phrases here that serve to bring your point across in an intelligent fashion. You're telling people how unintelligent they are for being dealers, then speaking as if you didn't get past 3rd grade. Thus, the whole "it's the internet, not a legal brief" argument fails.

2) The same could be said of many jobs, some of which pay very well and make people very happy. For the 2nd time, what is it that you do for a living?

3) Yet again, it's tough to make your point when you type things like this. I as well as others will happily debate with you, but this isn't even readable, no one has any idea what this could even mean.

4) No one did this. I simply asked, increduously, if the guy was serious about tipping $2 on $2000. I stated that it would say a lot about a person if they did this. If you were to do this in any other walk of life in the US - restaurant, bar, etc - you would get laughed at for being socially inept. Period. A $2000 pot at a low to medium stakes game takes effort to tabulate as well as cuts into the number of hands to be dealt during that down. Thus, the pot size does make a difference.

5) I don't understand this. I'm not a dealer. I never said I was, I'm not sure why you'd think I am. So, your comment doesn't apply to me. FWIW, there are a couple of dealers in this thread, but most of the people in the pro-tipping crowd here are simply players who advocate that side of the argument.

Tipping the floor is something that will pay monster dividends in the long run. If you play at the same venue regularly and the floor knows you want the table with the most fishies on it, and you tip them regularly when they assist with a table change ($2 per table change for me), you will learn that they start to help you out and let you know where the action is when you're grinding away. Obviously this doesn't apply much at smaller venues, but when you play a venue that has 5-12 tables of your game running, it pays for itself very quickly.

As far as dealer tipping, I've always been a $1 per pot guy on pots over $30. Pots over $500 occasionally get $2 from me, however, I think I will be changing my tipping procedure this week to tipping $2 per half hour. If everyone at the 9 handed table did this, dealers would make $36/hr for the time they are on the tables, which is about 60% of the time they are on site (at least where I play). This works out to a little over $20/hr in tips + whatever minute hourly the casino is paying.

Exceptional dealers receive an extra dollar from me, crappy dealers recive a dollar less.

I think is a great idea. If every player tipped me like this I would be very happy and it doesn't kill the players win rates