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Old 08-20-2018, 05:27 PM   #1
sharkem
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players unwilling to show their bluffs

Sometimes when a player's bluff gets called they might announce, "K high" because they don't want to show their cards. I would like to know their exact suits and kicker (and avoid showing my own hand if they muck), but I usually just show first anyway. If I just keep waiting and force them to show or muck, am I being a jerk? Could that cause any problems?
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:36 PM   #2
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

I wait for player to show or muck.... IF he/she has a habit of holding onto the cards too long when first to act. But more importantly for my own "pleasure"..... I will ABSOLUTELY out-wait a known slow-roller.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:42 PM   #3
sharkem
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

OK, sometimes after they say "K high" they will show me just the K. Is it OK to keep waiting for the kicker even after that?
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:43 PM   #4
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

go back and read my first reply. same holds true for 1 card shown.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:00 PM   #5
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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OK, sometimes after they say "K high" they will show me just the K. Is it OK to keep waiting for the kicker even after that?
No, just show your hand and move along.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:06 PM   #6
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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I would like to know their exact suits and kicker
Why?

The answer to whether you're a jerk or not depends on the answer to that question.

Basically, your cost is slowing down the game and your benefit is ___ (fill in the blank). If you get super little benefit (either in magnitude or in rarity) and are willing to impose a huge cost (either in magnitude or rarity) on others, it's probably a dick move.

Like if a drunk guy who raises PF blind and just randomly fires off and you have two pair on the river in a 10 bb pot, I'd be way more irritated than if two TAGs you've played with for years got into a huge raising war and the pot is 500 bb.

Quote:
I usually just show first anyway.
Me too. I just fastroll until I catch them lying, and then I stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Very few people lie occasionally, IME. Either they tell the truth all the time or they lie a lot.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:39 PM   #7
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

Depends on quality of player. Dont tap the glass, but feel free to wait on a good player. I generally show first, but one local good player doesnt like showing bluffs at all, and ive waites him our often enough that now he just tosses his cards in the muck the moment I call 100% of the time. I havent had the opportunity yet, but if I think he is bluffing and im holding T high, ill just call him and let him muck. Sort of a rare situation but im just sayin...
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:58 PM   #8
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

Do you try to avoid showing your hand if the situation is reversed and you are the one bluffing? The more often you do that, the more likely you are to be a jerk.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:23 AM   #9
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by sharkem View Post
Sometimes when a player's bluff gets called they might announce, "K high" because they don't want to show their cards. I would like to know their exact suits and kicker (and avoid showing my own hand if they muck), but I usually just show first anyway. If I just keep waiting and force them to show or muck, am I being a jerk? Could that cause any problems?
There has been ample elocutaion and explanation on why it is not really best to take the tact that you have chosen. I will summarize my feelings on the matter with a simple phrase that you don't get now, but will be able to look back later in your poker career and clearly understand.

Don't be that guy.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:08 AM   #10
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

Unless you're an obsessive hand recorder, knowing the exact cards the villain has is worthless. The vast majority of players can barely remember what went on in a hand 15 minutes later, let alone the exact cards, bets and suits.

Just show your cards every time. If Phil Ivey can muck a winning hand, so can you.

If up against a known slow roller, just ask the dealer to push the pot to you since you have the best tabled hand. Dealers should hate slow rollers because it costs them money. As soon as the slow roller starts seeing the chips move, he'll table his hand quick enough.
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:14 AM   #11
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

I like the times I tank call light, villain hem and haws, shuffling their cards like they just got caught with their hand in the cookie jar waiting for me to show, I show, then they flip the nuts over.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:48 PM   #12
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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If up against a known slow roller, just ask the dealer to push the pot to you since you have the best tabled hand.
A dealer would/should never do this.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:12 PM   #13
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

I don't think you're being a jerk. I think saying "king high" and expecting the other person to show first is being a jerk.

If a really bad player says "king high" I usually just show my hand or tell them it's good, usually the latter.

There are some people that will say "king high" when they're first, but also want to enforce the order when they are on the other side. I'll always go in order with them.

Really it's not that hard guys, just show your hand in order. If you're playing with someone so dumb that they legitimately don't understand the order, then just do whatever they want.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:15 PM   #14
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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am I being a jerk?
yes, esp if these are players you play with on a regular basis. What goes around comes around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkem View Post
I would like to know their exact suits and kicker
Why would their exact suits matter?

Saying king high should be enough information about him, depending on how the hand went down. If you keep demanding he shows first, he might tighten up and the next time you call him down he might felt you.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:22 PM   #15
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

Its generally seen as etiquette to just table your hand if your opponent says "you got it" or something similar and dont want to show. But according to the rules they have to show or muck and if they muck you can take the pot without showing your hand.

I just show in my friendly cash game, but in a tournament I am taking every edge I can get whether its to see his cards or not show my cards. And a known slowroller always has to show his hand first.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:42 PM   #16
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Why?

The answer to whether you're a jerk or not depends on the answer to that question.

Basically, your cost is slowing down the game and your benefit is ___ (fill in the blank). If you get super little benefit (either in magnitude or in rarity) and are willing to impose a huge cost (either in magnitude or rarity) on others, it's probably a dick move.

Like if a drunk guy who raises PF blind and just randomly fires off and you have two pair on the river in a 10 bb pot, I'd be way more irritated than if two TAGs you've played with for years got into a huge raising war and the pot is 500 bb.



Me too. I just fastroll until I catch them lying, and then I stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Very few people lie occasionally, IME. Either they tell the truth all the time or they lie a lot.
This is correct on all counts.

And bear in mind, if you are a good player, the specific information of one hand is not particularly useful and can even mislead you.

If you are calling, you already know that a certain percentage of your opponent's holdings are bluffs. Further, you are likely to know what they look like, e.g., busted flush and straight draws, maybe some high card continuation bets that missed the flop, etc.

So seeing the specific hand is at best at little value. You will see something that you already knew was in the player's range. If you didn't have any idea the player's range, then you shouldn't really be calling river bluffs in the first place (and probably shouldn't be playing at all).

And it can even mislead. Let's say someone misclicks or tilts. So they raise 62 offsuit pre-flop. And then, having gotten into the hand, they decide to bluff with it. But that's not how they normally play. Seeing the specific hand can actually cause you to come to wrong conclusions about the player's range, because a sample size of 1 is so unrepresentative.

Finally, this is just a moral/ethical principle, but I don't think anyone should pull this crap who spends the time he or she is not playing hands not paying attention. I.e., can you tell me the last 10 hands this player showed down against other players? If you can't, because you were playing with your smartphone or ogling the cocktail waitress or whatever, then you really have no right to be slowing up the game, because you obviously don't care about information.

Now if you can tell me the last 10 hands this player showed down, fine, I feel slightly differently. But most players can't.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:19 PM   #17
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

If they say "king high" or whatever and I can beat it I'll just show
I'll keep doing it as long as they return the courtesy
If they don't,or if they ever misdeclare their hand then I'm always making them show when I call their bet
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Old 08-22-2018, 03:30 PM   #18
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
If they say "king high" or whatever and I can beat it I'll just show
I'll keep doing it as long as they return the courtesy
If they don't,or if they ever misdeclare their hand then I'm always making them show when I call their bet
yep this
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:07 AM   #19
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

I bluffed the river against a tighter player this week. When I got called, I told him he was good, that I missed and was taking a stab. He insisted that I show, so I did, and then he began giving me reasons why. I let him talk a while, and simply said that A) I would never make him show if he said I was good and B) I was taught that showing what I thought was a winner right away was proper. The rest of the table seemed to agree with me, but they might have just wanted to move on and stop any possible extended drama.

I learned and was sure to value bet the rivers for the rest of the sessions.

This guy is a player who will give up a river bet/raise so he can see what the other guy is holding. Always calls, and it hurts his bottom line.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:41 AM   #20
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

Always a fun topic ... as is the rest of the poker world .. It depends.

As a new Player 'could' do or if I am in a new room I might want to 'force' a Player to show in turn for some information. But I think the suit/kicker information may not be worth what you think it's worth. If they do actually turn over a King, then simply ask if the other card is a 'x' suit and show your hand.

If I'm playing an opponent who 'resists' showing I might actually make them show more often, but you also have to consider the affects of this. There are some Players that I think I can tilt this way, so the affect is 'good'. But there are also Players who might give me less action if they know they have to show 'all' their holdings, so the affect is 'bad' since they now play tighter.

If I tank on the River even though I have a pretty strong hand, then I usually always show first when I call. Sometimes you just need a few extra thoughts to figure out if you missed something on the Board.

I was playing PLO and showed the two cards that played for me first. The opponent, who delays and really never wants to show, asked me if I thought he was going to slow roll and that I should just show my two other cards. I simply pointed out I was doing him a favor and that he could either show or muck, but he wasn't going to see my other two cards unless he showed all four of his. He mucked and I took down the pot. Now I 'protected' him and my other two hole cards from the rest of the table.

As noted, it slows the game down when taken too far but I also think it's a 'tit for tat' type of spot as well. GL
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #21
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Old 08-23-2018, 12:04 PM   #22
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
I bluffed the river against a tighter player this week ... Always calls, and it hurts his bottom line.
So why are you being reluctant to show?

If the player is tight, you shouldn't bet much. If the player calls a lot, you shouldn't bluff much.

When, for whatever reason, you do bluff, you want to reinforce his impression that people are constantly bluffing him. Snap fastroll! Make a big deal about how he caught you bluffing (if you're quiet about it he won't remember it as vivdly as when you're loud). Convince him that he's the best player in the whole wide world and oh man nice call nice call thought I had it that time for sure lololololol.

And then stop trying to bluff calling stations.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:21 PM   #23
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
So why are you being reluctant to show?

If the player is tight, you shouldn't bet much. If the player calls a lot, you shouldn't bluff much.

When, for whatever reason, you do bluff, you want to reinforce his impression that people are constantly bluffing him. Snap fastroll! Make a big deal about how he caught you bluffing (if you're quiet about it he won't remember it as vivdly as when you're loud). Convince him that he's the best player in the whole wide world and oh man nice call nice call thought I had it that time for sure lololololol.

And then stop trying to bluff calling stations.


100% right. Unsure why reluctant, just a bad habit I guess. I'm not mucking here, because I realize that players could be on missed draws and making a bad decision to bluff catch with worse.

Player doesn't play many hands (tight) and plays the hands with mostly PSB or check/calls. I thought I could push him off a weak hand. I've certainly seen him disgustedly muck rivers to bets that were 'value sized".

I usually reserve my snap fastrolls for the limped checked down $8 pots.

Re: bluffing calling stations... One day at a time. A work in progress.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:54 PM   #24
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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I was playing PLO and showed the two cards that played for me first. The opponent, who delays and really never wants to show, asked me if I thought he was going to slow roll and that I should just show my two other cards. I simply pointed out I was doing him a favor and that he could either show or muck, but he wasn't going to see my other two cards unless he showed all four of his. He mucked and I took down the pot. Now I 'protected' him and my other two hole cards from the rest of the table.
People wasting time negotiating like this is why I firmly support the rule that you must table your hand to claim a pot at showdown.
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:29 PM   #25
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Re: players unwilling to show their bluffs

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Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
I usually reserve my snap fastrolls for the limped checked down $8 pots.
Whenever I am required to show first, I snap fastroll. I'm not ashamed to show 4-high or whatever, if they think I suck, all the better.

As a matter of fact, the absolute best hands to show are the ones where you made a mistake but somehow landed ass backwards into a winning hand at showdown. Because then you get all the benefits of people thinking that hand is in your range without any of the future costs of actually having that hand in your range.
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