That is your opinion, and I believe it is wrong. According to most (good) poker rules, you cannot fold to no bet.

It may or may not be relevant that in seven-card stud, if a player folds when there is no bet and no one else bets, then that spot still gets dealt cards until someone bets.

Arguably, open-folding isn't actually folding. It is more along the lines of intentionally unprotecting your hand so it gets fouled.

Consider the situation where it is limped around and the big blind tries to fold. I am ok with the house rule being that BB is not allowed to fold and the dealer is to return his cards to him, if possible. I suspect that is the rule in a non-zero number of poker rooms.

Are they though?

Without looking through an OPTAH manual my guess would be "no", and if it is a rule then it's more of a house rule in the U.S. I couldn't even begin to count the number of times I've seen someone fold their hand post flop when they had an option to check, and I've never seen that player penalized or warned in any fashion in a cash game.

For OP, if you feel the need to rub it in your opponent's face and show him how superior you are, go right ahead I guess. I think it makes you look like a tool, but you're not breaking any rules. Personally I would have been happy knowing I won a pot that I otherwise wouldn't have except for the situation created by a 3rd player which was no fault of the player who you decided to needle.

Guess that depends on what the house rule on open folding is doesn't it? And also even if there is some rule, if it is seldom or never enforced what difference does it make? I personally never do it, always just check, because that is the best move , but when somebody does it , I could not care less.

This is most people's attitude except when it happens and they realize that it cost them money .....

I don't see where Robert's addresses this other than to say that it's binding as a fold/dead hand. TDA clearly states that there can be a penalty applied.

I have open folded from the blinds in a multi-way pot after the Flop, but I would never consider doing this on the Turn or River with action pending unless I was HU. (Next hand please!) It was pretty funny one time when the Board ran out Broadway for a 6 (not 7) way chop!

It most definitely can affect action since there is one less player to think about when making decisions. I would be pretty torqued if an EP player did this on the River in a 3-way pot. Kettle/Black? Yes, sure. Technically the spots are the same. GL

I would say this is taking action which could unfairly influence the course of play.

Actually my Bad Play and lack of focus costs me money more than anything an open fold could 99% of the time. So you (and others) can care about this all you want, and I won't care at all. Poker will survive I think.

1. I'm not saying most people who fold out of turn have to poop. I'm just saying that's one of the more legitimate reasons to do so.

2. The most polite way to handle it is to begin with the assumption that everyone has a legitimate reason - even though we know most don't. Escalate as necessary, rather than beginning with the assumption everyone else in the world is a jerk actively trying to make your job harder.

3. Folding out of turn isn't the end of the world. To be clear - because apparently the assumption is that if I'm not frothing at the mouth, I'm as good as actively campaigning in favor of it - I don't do it, I don't think others should do it, and I as a player warn others as politely (and as humorously) as I can. So what if all the player learns is to stop doing it to you? Let your fellow dealers know they need to ask politely and the player will stop for them too. I totally agree this is a huge pain in the ass, which makes it on par with every other customer service job on the planet. Customers are indeed a huge pain in the ass. That's what the breakroom is for, dealers can complain and strategize and when they go back to the jungle refreshed, they'll get greeted by the cranky racist with a "oh great this guy again" and they'll keep a smile on their face and joke, "this table has been naughty so Santa sent me to punish you" or whatever it takes to get through the down without people spitting at you.

Many people think that folding in turn is against the rules, but except for the recent change to the TDA rules, it hasn't been specifically mentioned in most common rules sets. However, if you trace back to Hoyle's Rules for Poker, it actually specifically says that you can fold when you could check, though it is not recommended. Here's the text:

According to hoyle then, you can fold in any order. How would you like to see the button fold first preflop then everyone fold randomly? I think we can safely ignore those rules.

Why is there a discussion about what may or may have not been written down by third parties (and the "you can fold in any order then because he didn't actually specify that you can fold any time when it is your turn is ridiculous) when all that matters is; do casinos enforce it?

I have never seen it enforced in a multitude of countries, so perhaps it isn't as "doh obviously you can't do it" as some people want?

To some of us, following the rules and good poker etiquette is important, even if they are not enforced by most rooms.

I think you flipped your terms here.

I think nobody disagrees on the etiquette part, but despite various quotes being made I have yet to see an instance where it is actually enforced. In other words, for all practical purposes you can do this.

Thanks! I missed this one looking for the word 'fold' to be within a sentence or two of the 'rule'. This is a great place in the rules that Floor's can lean on to 'blanket' an explanation of pretty much anything. GL

Yeah, as long as it is in turn, I don't see a problem. As for the issue of 'fairness', this is just another case of positional advantage. Later players have the advantage of more information and having others make decisions before them. Early players have always had the advantage of initiative, and being able to use information first. This is no different.

It is different because legitimate positional advantage is an actual rule that everyone agreed to before the hand began. When people fold the way Villain did, it changes the order in the middle of the hand.

A few posts back, I pointed out an example of how it changes things - if I am the CO and BTN folds out of turn, it essentially hands the button to me, and transfers EV from the SB and BB to me.

Folding to no bet 7 handed is no big deal. In a 3 way pot it's not cool.


And he flops a draw and puts in a bunch of money and loses when he was trying to fold...

Or he catches runner runner and takes down a big pot and 4 others at the table are glaring at me for making him play the hand...

No thanks.

Is anyone seriously advocating that the player be forced to hold his cards? That wouldn't work if a player fires his cards directly into the muck pile. Maybe a fine equal to the amount of the big blind would be a nice deterrent.

I think its kinda funny that players (and we've seen one or two in this thread) will get very indignant and staunchly defend their "right" to open fold. You can't win if you fold obviously doesn't click with them. I think players who open fold are often afraid of their own play. They don't want to face a decision when everyone checks after the flop and the turn brings them a gut shot straight draw or something. Cause it really doesn't make a lot of sense to fold if nobody bet.

I am, but just for the next-level angle-shoot fold/return/check-raise potential.

There aren’t really cash game penalties in the same way there are for tournaments.

And this open fold is likely just a more dramatic version of the more common “I can’t hit a draw” sighing and showing the hand to a neighbor after the river card is dealt. So whatever the ‘reason’ is for that action, that’s probably the reason for this one.

I don't see how your example is relevant to the concept of folding in turn (which is what I understand the discussion to be about). Certainly, any out of turn action should be prohibited/prevented.

I don't see how folding to no bet is significantly different from acting out of turn. They both cause the same problems and tend to be done by the same inconsiderate people for the same stupid reasons.

Clearly we disagree on this. In turn, everybody gets their information when they are supposed to get it, so it is not unfair vis-a-vis the person not folding to no bet. Everyone has the same comparative advantages that they would have had otherwise. Folding to no bet does not create any problems. At least not logistic or procedural problems. Mental problems for some people, perhaps.

This, I agree with.


Out of curiosity, in the case described in the opening post, who here thinks the remaining two players should just check it down? If you suggest that the poster should not have bet, shouldn't you argue that the last player should not bet either. In my mind, requiring the remaining players to take any prescribed course of action is much worse than what the folder did.