Is there a rule to prevent this angle? - Page 2 - Poker Card Room

If you made the "honest mistake" of saying check when it actually was your turn, you don't get to fix the mistake by betting.

Even if you broke the rules accidentally, no one else should be punished for this.

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01-14-2019 , 06:43 PM

#27

Lord_Crispen

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,205

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Can we also punish the guy in seat 4 who had his hand in the way for just a moment when I looked but otherwise wasn't actually hiding his cards? Or punish seat 5 for reaching across the table to show a photo of his new boat to the 1 seat?

The standard rule is fine. Mistakes happen. Just have the floor punish the people on a case by case basis if it becomes a pattern. It's not hard.

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01-14-2019 , 07:59 PM

#28

chillrob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,868

I agree that the "standard rule" is fine. As someone else already stated, that was the standard rule pretty much everywhere until recently, and with good reason, IMO. I believe it's still the rule according to RROP.

I've only ever seen a few times someone check out of turn and then want to bet or raise on his turn. In my judgement, never was it an "honest mistake". Every time it seemed like an honest check out of turn, the player stayed with a check or call voluntarily when it was his turn.

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01-15-2019 , 01:11 AM

#29

wheelflush

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,381

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Great rule. Why do you need the ability to angle by checking out of turn when you're actually strong? Try to win honestly instead.

there is no advantage to checking out of turn (as long as we all agree the other guy can check back and get to showdown). it may make you look weak, which is neither honest nor dishonest. it's poker.

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01-15-2019 , 01:52 AM

#30

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,868

Well this is a derail, but yes there can be an advantage to making someone think you plan to check when you really plan to bet or raise. I don't know what you're talking about "the other guy can check back and get to showdown". I'm talking about in position player B checking when the action is on OOP player A. Player A has no way to "check back" and reach showdown.

If you want to quiver your lip to look weak, that's fine with me. But deliberately acting out of turn (especially when it's not binding) to do so is not.

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01-15-2019 , 02:39 AM

#31

albedoa

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,392

You were disagreeing about a rule that prohibits raising a bet after checking out of turn. There is no "plan to bet" unless you really ****ed up your angle :P A check remains a check if nobody has bet.

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01-15-2019 , 03:20 AM

#32

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,868

Quote:

Originally Posted by albedoa

He may be planning to raise if bet into, yet still be allowed to bet if checked to.

There have been posts on 2+2 about a regular angle shooter who would check out of turn and then attempt to bet after the first player checked. Even if the first player then claimed that he had checked, the angle shooter would call himself on the OOT turn action in order to give himself back the right to bet.

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01-15-2019 , 07:08 AM

#33

answer20

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10,844

The 'check back' spot is on the River when IP B checks OOT, which allows OOP A to 'check back' and get to Showdown since he now knows that B is locked into his check unless A bets.

In the past it was common for the c/r to be illegal ... we've moved on. We've come to a point in poker where a Player is allowed to 'reconsider' his OOT action if action changes when it actually does get to them. Yes, this is a possible angle spot, but it certainly does come with risk if the action doesn't change and open the door up for a raise. GL

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01-15-2019 , 10:20 AM

#34

albedoa

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,392

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

He may be planning to raise if bet into, yet still be allowed to bet if checked to.

No, I’m saying you and wheel are talking about two different sets of rules. He didn’t augment the case of the OOP player being forced to check after the in-position player checks. You just decided that the OOP player would be allowed to bet when checked to if he were also allowed to raise a bet.

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01-15-2019 , 01:48 PM

#35

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Why do you need the ability to angle by checking out of turn when you're actually strong?

Because sometimes you honestly want to check if it's checked to you and raise if it's bet to you.

Example that you should be very familiar with: BTN opens, SB calls, BB calls. BB flops bottom set. BB checks assuming SB will check, but SB donks.

You can argue that BB should lose the right to raise for his mistake, but you can't say there are no honest mistake scenarios.

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01-15-2019 , 02:44 PM

#36

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,868

Sure, that's theoretically possible, but I've never seen it happen.

Really the only time I've seen it was in heads up situations.

Even if it's an honest mistake, someone is likely to get hurt by the mistake. It's better to have the person who made the mistake have the "punishment" than someone else.

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01-15-2019 , 02:48 PM

#37

wheelflush

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,381

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Player 2 checks out of turn.
Player 1: "I already checked."
Player 2: "No, you didn't."
Player 1: "Whatever. I check."
Player 2: "I bet."
Player 1: "You can't do that. We both checked."
That should always be the ruling. If player 1 wants to claim he checked first, let him.

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01-15-2019 , 06:26 PM

#38

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Sure, that's theoretically possible, but I've never seen it happen.

If you had a Black Mirror type implant that recorded everything you saw, I bet I'd be able to find an instance of that (raise, defend, defend, BB checks OOT, SB donks, BB raises) happening at least once every 100 hours of MSLHE you've played.

To be clear, I don't think I've ever seen it turn into a problem that involved any intervention.

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01-16-2019 , 05:38 AM

#39

Lord_Crispen

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,205

lol rob. It happens. Maybe you play in the one room in the universe where this stuff doesn't happen the way it happens around the world. I feel like you always have a contrarian answer to almost every thread when we talk about standard situations.

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01-17-2019 , 11:15 PM

#40

yamiyami

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 16

I agree with the guy who said to just be annoying every time he does it. Call time, demand that people stop, demand that he not cover his hand, say "he's doing it again" after he limps with raises in front of him, whatever you can do to make people aware that he's angling.

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01-21-2019 , 04:14 PM

#41

BigBlue56

veteran

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,963

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discretion

There is an old guy in my room that repeatedly does this. When he has a monster preflop, he will pretend to watch TV while covering up his cards with his hand. Normally, this will induce someone to act out of turn and start a chain reaction. If that person raises and there's calls, he'll wait until the action completes then he'll say something about him not having acted yet. He'll then limp (so action doesn't change) then jam. If the next person doesn't raise, he'll speak up immediately and raise.

Is this just a stupid angle that requires very observant dealers and players to combat?

Yes, an angle.

I'm depending on dealers to control the game. First time action goes around the table and back to a skipped player, I'm expecting the dealer to call the floor. TBH, I'm expecting the floor to rule the hand dead after significant action had occurred.

If the dealer doesn't call the floor, or declare the hand dead, I'm requesting clarification.

I've also been known to ask players who sometimes hide cards/big chips, if they have cards/big chips. The goal is to get them not to keep hiding cards/big chips, as well as to alert the dealer and table that they are hiding cards/big chips. Some people don't know, others are angling.

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