There is an old guy in my room that repeatedly does this. When he has a monster preflop, he will pretend to watch TV while covering up his cards with his hand. Normally, this will induce someone to act out of turn and start a chain reaction. If that person raises and there's calls, he'll wait until the action completes then he'll say something about him not having acted yet. He'll then limp (so action doesn't change) then jam. If the next person doesn't raise, he'll speak up immediately and raise.

Is this just a stupid angle that requires very observant dealers and players to combat?

That is an oldie and one to easy to spot. If the dealer doesn't rectify call floor and ask him to keep his cards in view and for dealer to call action and not go past him.

Yes, the rule is that you have to protect your action.

The punishment is that if several people have acted behind you, your hand may be killed. If I were the floor, I wouldn't kill hands lightly, but if this were a regular occurrence that seemed to be happening especially when the old man had a big hand, his hand would be getting killed every time until he stopped doing it.

Doesn't seem that hard to observe it happening. Next time he tries it, just call the floor. Even if he rules for the old guy, he will now be put on notice that someone is aware of what he is doing.

I'd make it my mission to call "TIME!", every single time this guy does this. I would also add loudly, "He did it *again*, fellas! You know what THAT means!"

***

We got an old guy at my work. If you're heads up with him, and he checks out of turn....DON'T FALL FOR IT!

He's the greatest poker player I've ever seen. I've NEVER successfully check-raised anyone when I was on the button. This guy does it several times per night! He's a visionary!

The room I previously dealt in had a rule against that. If you checked out of turn you weren’t allowed to raise if your opppnet bet into you.

Yeah there are multiple and frequent points of failure if the guy is allowed to get away with this repeatedly. You, the dealer, and the floor among others are each able to do something. What has been tried?

One way of dealing with it is if you are next to act, every single time, crane your neck over in an exaggerated fashion and look in front of him. Explain that you are trying to make sure he isn't hiding a monster. Do this enough time, his angle will stop working. Some would consider this a breach of wtiquette, but I think it is not inappropriate when dealing with a known angler.

Why exaggerate?

Just wait. If people ask what you're doing, simply say the person on your right hasn't acted yet. No need to point out the tell.

Announcing someone's tells to the table is a moderate jerk move. It's no different from pointing out that Seat 3 always overbets the pot when he's bluffing.

I'm with callipygian on this. Any comments exposing that he has a monster because of what he is doing is an OPTAH violation.

However, I would always point out that he has a hand and that action is on him. And I would also note it to the Floor every time he does it, so the Floor (and dealers) know there is an angleshooter in their midst.

Spewing's point is also well taken. Just wait for him to act if you are to his left.

We had a guy in the 20/40 LHE who did this. Although his angle was to be able to limp UTG by essentially becoming the CO or BTN. It was a weak angle and he was a weak player. So when I was on his left I would just wait him out. I would try to stop any out of turn action as well. One time I became the button when I was UTG+1. Its hard to stop an avalanche.

One of the main protections against this angle is that if there is as you say an “avalanche “ of people acting out of turn while the angler is hiding his cards, the angler can and should be punished for failing to speak up to “protect his action”. This can be removal of the right to raise, or possibly the killing of his hand. If three players act while the angler is delaying, that should invoke this sanction.

Be sure to argue for this if he keeps doing it.

I don't disagree. My action, though, is meant to discourage the behavior by ruining his angle, now and in the future. I won't always be to his left, and I won't always catch it when he covers his cards, so taking the chance to bring his antics to the light would be how I would act.

Is this a violation of etiquette and OPTAH, a little bit, yes. But if I know for a fact that this guy frequently uses this specifically as an angle, I have no problem doing it to protect the game. Some people might consider me just as much in the wrong for handling it that way, and I respect that. My point of view is that I ma not just trying to protect myself from being angled, but also the newer players, as well as protecting the game.

I have no problem exposing the angle after the hand is over. Especially with a Floor present. I don't even have a problem with warning other players before a hand that an angleshooter is present and even describing his angle.

But helping another player in the middle of a hand by telling him that the angler has a big hand is unacceptable. Also, your "help" may hurt another player who knows the angler and the angle and is preparing to crush him with a bigger hand.

Also, alerting each dealer that the angler has a tendency to hide his cards so action will pass him especially with big hands is another way to expose and prevent it.

And finally, have a Floor come over and explain when the angler's hand would be considered dead (pre-flop) or when the angler would have considered to have checked or folded his hand post flop if there was considerable action after he had hidden his hand. If going this route then I would have talked to the Floor in advance to make sure rules will be enforced properly.

Yes .. There are comments in both Robert's and TDA the cover a Player protecting their right to act in a timely manner. Both sets of rules define 'significant action' slightly different but in both cases if SA has occurred (2-3 Players acting OOT) then the Floor is supposed to be called to determine how to handle the skipped Player's hand ... including ruling it DEAD!! (But mostly just limiting them to checks and calls, no bets or raises.)

How about as a 'good doobie' reg or incoming Dealer you just warn the Player to this guy's left that he acts slow so try to be aware of it. GL

Regarding exposing the angle mid-hand, how does this differ from the (well known now?) attempt by the supposed non-english speaker in a recent (2+ years ago?) EPT or WSPOE (??) event where he made some sort of declaration, changed it, and the TD basically told the table (maybe only one other guy in the hand at the time?) that the last time he did this, he had the nuts (effective or actual?)? If I recall correctly, he said all-in, then claimed to have meant call. TD held him to the all-in, but told the players that this had been done previously when the player held the nuts. Sho'nuff, he had the effective nuts on this hand too. Might have felted the opponent here.

I know the situation isn't exactly the same, but I'm asking about the OPTAH violation (?) by the TD. Angles, by definition, are not against the rules, so maybe the TD crossed the line? I'm not arguing he did, and the angle-shooter deserves a KITN (IMO) in both cases.

I would watch this player when I am not in a hand and point out that he still has cards when the next player touches his chips as if to bet. I might speculate that he is hiding his cards intentionally, but I won't offer a theory as to why.

I know the spot you're talking about. I think there's creative ways to let the table know that this is a repeat offensive without tying it to the strength of the holding. The Floor has the full discretion as to how much information is given out.

I may be splitting threads, but providing information about a previous infraction doesn't necessarily violate the current hand's privacy. But as in criminal cases, sometimes it's allowed and others it's not. GL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkxcBy6js7s

2011 EPT tournament.

I had actually looked this up, as I was going to mention that this would be the way I would prefer the floor to handle it.

That rule used to be universal...until the NLHE boom. Suddenly, the once-distinct rules for LHE and NLHE were homogenized, and LHE players were allowed to "take it back and reconsider their action," a rule that makes sense in big-bet poker in some spots, but no sense at all in fixed-limit in all spots.

Repeatingly covering carda should lead to stern warnings, forfeiture of betting privileges (ex you can only call or fold) and eventually hand being ruled dead.

RRoP simply removes his right to act on his hand. Since even a check is an act, the hand is killed.

To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act. — RRoP

OP uses the word "repeatedly" when describing the player's action (or non-action). I'm wondering how many times this has actually happened. If it's universally known that he does this, I can't see how the manager hasn't given multiple warnings to the point of eviction. I know I would.

This is an extremely well meaning piece of advice that will almost certainly have exactly the opposite effect of its intent.

Teaching people exactly where the line is only gives them confidence in toeing it.

Take CTRs - if you tell someone that cashing out exactly $10,000 will cause something that cashing out exactly $9,999 doesn't, what do you think happens? Then you need a second rule - the SAR - to cover all the grey areas that you've inadvertently created with your clear as day, bright line rule.

terrible rule.

Great rule. Why do you need the ability to angle by checking out of turn when you're actually strong? Try to win honestly instead.

What if it's a honest mistake?