This was posted on the stud forum and I thought it would be interesting to hear opinions on here. I'll summarize mine afterward.



My analysis:

I think he should go for it and report back.

What am I missing? How is he getting a new up card? Is this on a later street and they are trying to change up what cards they have up?

I assume they mean he mucks by turning his up card face down, out of turn, then turns his "up card" back over and tries to play the hand, but now it's a new card.

Right. And my understanding is this is a pineapple stud 8 game where everyone gets 3 hole cards plus an upcard and discards one of the hole cards at whatever point there rules say (prob. before 4th street). Obviously you're not allowed to discard your upcard instead.

So villain is dealt (999)7, a wired pair of nines with a discarded third nine, a worthless hand. But he wants to have (99)9 so he "accidentally" flips up a nine instead of the real upcard seven and discards the seven.

It's not pineapple, it's super stud. You get 4 down and have to discard 2. But same difference.

Couldn't recall if it was 3 or 4. What's it called if you just discard 1 in stud?

Pretty sure the Wynn called that "Stud 8 or better pineapple style" but there's probably another name.

Is there any place that doesn't consider a hand dead as soon as you turn over your up card?

There shouldn't be.

A SuperStud8 hand I was dealt last week: (A542)K. That's why the character is trying to cheat and he has to be barred from the room for trying to pull a move like that.

Yeah, this bafflement is half the reason I cross posted this, to get second opinions.

1. There is absolutely a place for a "friendly game" vibe where you don't enforce accidental string bets, accidentally putting out the wrong amount, etc. This is especially true in mid-stakes mixed games which are pretty intimidating for newer players anyway.
2. That said, flipping your upcard out of turn when you really meant to call or raise is not the sort of mistake new players make. No reasonable person who's ever played stud thinks you can flip your upcard at any point and still expect to keep playing. Wait for better spots for the "friendly game" leniency.
3. As if that weren't bizarre enough, why would the other players continue with a "friendly game" understanding once the guy shoots the first angle? How would he ever get a chance to try this again?

The other half of why I cross-posted:

Suppose the OP there decides to set his trap and gets his chance. Same angleshooter, same muck out of turn, same flipping up the wrong upcard and staying in. Let's use my example where the wrong upcard is a nine and should have been the seven. 3rd street betting is complete.

Everyone discards. Dealer burns and deals fourth street. Betting round ensues.

Dealer burns and deals fifth street. Betting round ensues.

Dealer burns and deals sixth street. Betting round ensues.

Dealer burns and deals hole cards on seventh street. Final betting round takes place; hand goes to showdown. Villain shows nines full (using the wrong nine doorcard and two nines in the hole). Hero* complains about the wrong upcard, calls the floor, asks for the hand to be ruled dead.

What's your ruling?


*I should call him Antihero. But I don't want to bias responses.

1. Ask the player how he knows it's the wrong door card, and why he waited until showdown to say anything.

2. Assuming he can't come up with anything valid, void the hand and refund all money.

3. Permanently ban the cheater.

4. Kick out the other player for the night.

I would probably not void the hand unless the cheater admitted doing this (benefit of doubt for now). Instead, impound the pot while I go watch the surveillance video and cheater is perma banned if true and then void the hand and return the monies. Other angle shooting DB gets a warning.

You would have to play it like you just noticed.

"Hey wait a minute, you had a red 7 for a doorcard, where is it?... FLOOR, check the cameras please."

These are just horrible solution that nobody (including person getting angled wants). I just want them to think twice before they do something like this again and knowing their hand will be killed on 7th seems like most likely way to make sure they don’t try it again

I'm curious as well. I'm OK with screwing over a cheater.

But yeah, once the up card is turned over, the hand should be dead, out of turn or not.

Another good way to make sure they don't try it again is to ban them. You're wrong about nobody wanting this. I certainly do. Cheaters can get bent.

Yeah cheaters are often bad players

I think the most positive EV play here might be to wait until 5th street when you brick your 345 suited

Then do the old, "hey I thought the Jack was door card, where'd it go bit" as previously suggested.

Give that a go then if you're so hyped up about it. But I'd ask a floor for a hypothetical ruling before I did it.

This thinking is wrong. I'm not talking about ethics, either. I know half the people here suggesting this are mostly kidding, but waiting until later in the hand is setting yourself up to get screwed not only by a bad ruling, but also the non-zero negative effects of being seen as an angler in the future.

By waiting until later in the hand, a good floor may see that you were trying to freeroll. Kinda like when a player sees people start to check out of turn behind t hem and they just let the whole table check before saying "Hey, I haven't done anything yet." If the floor is competent at all, most of the time you're going to lose your action. Protect your action. Don't put yourself in a position to have a (bad?) ruling go against what you intend to have happen.

well ya gotta really sell that "where did your jack go!?" line

If you knew what it was before, and then ask where it went and the cameras showed he changed it..well it would be tough to rule against


Are you allowed to look away from his board?


I think 5th will work!