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Old 06-06-2010, 10:35 PM   #1
Ultrazord
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Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Ok, to start. I don't care about your opinion on the rule. I don't care why it exists. I don't care who created it or why it's around. Please do not derail this topic. My question:

I would simply like to know why such a simple request, one that has been on virtually all rule books for as long as most of us can remember, is available online, never gets debated online, doesn't slow or affect the game if everyone follows it - Why do people get so butt hurt when this occurs?

There are countless threads...I've searched. But for the life of me I cannot figure out why anyone actually gets offended. Is it just a stigma attached via forums and attitude in rooms? Could it ever get reversed and have people get mad at people who don't want to show?

I've learned, who cares. Especially at low limit live games...if someone wants to see your hand it's likely to see if their guess was right. I would guess less than 10% of players at 1-2 or 2-3 learn anything. Don't get offended. Don't get paranoid. You can still crush these players. Unless of course you're a total nit who only raises aces or kings...
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:39 PM   #2
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Some people equate it to you calling them a cheater.

Some people play a bad hand and don't want to show.
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:54 PM   #3
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Probably because when a guy gets his bluff snapped off the last thing he wants is his hand exposed in full view of the rest of the table as everyone thinks "lolz what was he thinking". I mean I personally don't care when people do it to me but I can see how most people consider it poor etiquette, even if its technically in tandem with the rules.
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:18 PM   #4
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

You can't understand why people get upset when you antagonize or humiliate them after they have just lost a big pot?
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:20 PM   #5
AppState'03
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

IMO it's because usually the people asking aren't asking for the right reason and it's poor etiquette. The rule is in place to prevent collusion not to see if your particular guess was correct.
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:20 PM   #6
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
You can't understand why people get upset when you antagonize or humiliate them after they have just lost a big pot?
+1
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:28 PM   #7
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

I don't really get upset about it anymore, but when I first started playing I got upset if I made a bad call on the river, was already shipping like half my stack to another player, then someone requests to have my bad call shown to the whole table. I made a bad play and just wanted to muck in peace, not be embarassed about it.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:45 AM   #8
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

IMO, the reason people get upset is that SOMEONE (who knows who) decided asking to see a player's hand, even though the rule exists that not only allows it but requires the hand to be shown, is poor etiquette.

I'm guessing that the person who said it was poor etiquette is the same person that doesn't like gving away ANY information.

This is also the same person who (possibly) came up with the notion that the rule was invented to counter collusion.

Consider this possible train of thought.

There is a rule that requires all players to show a called hand, the rule can be invoked or not. It upsets some players because they are forced to give away information.

So these players decide to claim the rule was designed to foil cheaters. Therefore, if you agree with the idea that the rule was designed to counteract collusion, then using the rule must mean you are accusing someone of being a cheat.

ipso facto, you are a DB for saying "IWTSTH!"

Okay, I violated the OP's boundries I'm sure and I apologize but I think my theory has merit.

People are upset by the use of the rule because some players were able to convince everyone who listened to them that it was rude so it must be rude.

I could speculate on who those players may be but without knowing for sure, I won't make that guess but they would probably be well known to any serious student of the game.

But that is just an unfounded theory.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:54 AM   #9
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

D-G I think you're way off on this one. Many of the players I see who get upset by IWTSTH are amateurs who have probably never read 2p2 or been told that it is rude. It's usually because they made a bad call/got sucked out/etc. and a lost a big pot and don't want to show their hand and be embarassed after taking a big hit.
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:54 AM   #10
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dealer-Guy View Post
IMO, the reason people get upset is that SOMEONE (who knows who) decided asking to see a player's hand, even though the rule exists that not only allows it but requires the hand to be shown, is poor etiquette.

I'm guessing that the person who said it was poor etiquette is the same person that doesn't like gving away ANY information.

This is also the same person who (possibly) came up with the notion that the rule was invented to counter collusion.

Consider this possible train of thought.

There is a rule that requires all players to show a called hand, the rule can be invoked or not. It upsets some players because they are forced to give away information.

So these players decide to claim the rule was designed to foil cheaters. Therefore, if you agree with the idea that the rule was designed to counteract collusion, then using the rule must mean you are accusing someone of being a cheat.

ipso facto, you are a DB for saying "IWTSTH!"

Okay, I violated the OP's boundries I'm sure and I apologize but I think my theory has merit.

People are upset by the use of the rule because some players were able to convince everyone who listened to them that it was rude so it must be rude.

I could speculate on who those players may be but without knowing for sure, I won't make that guess but they would probably be well known to any serious student of the game.

But that is just an unfounded theory.

This actually makes some sense. I remember reading the thread a while back about how the whole collusion argument was made up. It was rarely ever used for this purpose. The only problem is the train of thought here goes so far that only people who casually read forums would get to this point.

Honestly I think it's just one of those things people frowned upon and now its the social norm.

Something else to consider. Check raising was considered a douchebag thing to do...but now its a key part. Could this be a similar situation?
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:56 AM   #11
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It's because online players have difficulty adjusting to the dynamics of live play.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:12 AM   #12
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

It is rude for the same reason that slow rolling is rude...don't pour salt in the wounds of losing players!
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePokerFink29421901
D-G I think you're way off on this one. Many of the players I see who get upset by IWTSTH are amateurs who have probably never read 2p2 or been told that it is rude. It's usually because they made a bad call/got sucked out/etc. and a lost a big pot and don't want to show their hand and be embarassed after taking a big hit.

If they have watched TV poker they have heard a commentator refer to asking to see a hand as being rude.
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:28 AM   #14
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
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It's because online players have difficulty adjusting to the dynamics of live play.
No. It's been rude the ask to see a hand long before internet poker.
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:42 AM   #15
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

To those who say people get upset because its a violation of etiquette, you have to realize that's absurd. People who have no problem berating the dealer or other players, talking about a hand in progress, answering the phone at the table, showing their cards to just their neighbor, groaning about how the flop would have hit their folded hand, talking about checking a hand down with a third player all-in in the pot, forgetting to shower for weeks at a time, etc etc etc, still get upset when asked to show their hand.

Sure it has something to do with human nature. But it has nothing to do with being a violation of some ephemeral code of conduct that huge numbers of players don't respect to begin with.
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:52 AM   #16
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetack View Post
To those who say people get upset because its a violation of etiquette, you have to realize that's absurd. People who have no problem berating the dealer or other players, talking about a hand in progress, answering the phone at the table, showing their cards to just their neighbor, groaning about how the flop would have hit their folded hand, talking about checking a hand down with a third player all-in in the pot, forgetting to shower for weeks at a time, etc etc etc, still get upset when asked to show their hand.

Sure it has something to do with human nature. But it has nothing to do with being a violation of some ephemeral code of conduct that huge numbers of players don't respect to begin with.

Really makes no difference, I consider people trash for doing any of those
as well.
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:53 AM   #17
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

I dont get upset, but I ask them to just ask me instead of asking the dealer. If you want to know, just ask, and I will show.

There is no need to enforce some IWTSTH rule, cant we all just be polite gentlemen?
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:44 PM   #18
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Yes, streamraise, but it usually seems to be a controversy when a player accustomed to instant hand histories insists on it. I'm answering the controversy question, not the rudeness question.
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:15 PM   #19
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Most times if it's just one request people don't get PO'd about it. It's when a person continually does it and it's obv why they are doing it.

Question for dealers: At what limits does IWTSTH usually occur? Is it usually at/above/below a certain limit? The answer to that question might tell you something.
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:19 PM   #20
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
It is rude for the same reason that slow rolling is rude...don't pour salt in the wounds of losing players!
exactly this
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:52 PM   #21
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

I had two different players get upset by another players request to see their hads. It was the same player but it wasn't based on IWTSTH, in bo0th cases the player asked to see hands these optehr players had shown to their neighbors.

SOSA is so much more understandable, no one should be getting upset about that yet two players were obviously offended by the simple reguest to show the table what they had shown the guy to their left or right.
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Old 06-08-2010, 08:32 AM   #22
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dealer-Guy View Post
I had two different players get upset by another players request to see their hads. It was the same player but it wasn't based on IWTSTH, in bo0th cases the player asked to see hands these optehr players had shown to their neighbors.

SOSA is so much more understandable, no one should be getting upset about that yet two players were obviously offended by the simple reguest to show the table what they had shown the guy to their left or right.
I wish dealers would just flip the hand over when it's been shown to another player. I don't think anybody should have to ask.
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Old 06-08-2010, 08:50 AM   #23
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_trader View Post
.....cant we all just be polite gentlemen?
If only....
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Old 06-08-2010, 08:59 AM   #24
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Re: Someone Explain the IWTSTH Controversy please!

Morons + idiots + IWTSTH = COLOSSAL STUPIDITY BEYOND BELIEF.

There, it's been 'splained. End of thread.
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyChip View Post
I wish dealers would just flip the hand over when it's been shown to another player. I don't think anybody should have to ask.
The one time I really got involved in any conflict playing 15/30 at hollywood park (which is generally one of the nicest tables in town) was when a player bet me and another player out of a hand when I had top pair and the turn action went bet, raise, re-raise, fold (me), fold. The winner then showed his hand to his neighbor and giggled, and I asked for SOSA. He then turbo-mucked and accused me of bad form.

I normally NEVER invoke IWTSTH or SOSA. But the guy's giggling tilted me.
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