Trying to get my thoughts together about what's been happening in my local room and how much of a problem it is. I would love the input of some more experienced guys about this topic.

So, I play in a very small room. Usually 1 table running every night (not always full) and two on weekends (they had a rake race this month and the 16th place guy only played 35 hours). Game is 1/2 uncapped, plays ridiculously deep, usually has a $5 straddle and rake is huge (10% capped at $15) but occasional massive whales make it somewhat profitable.

Lately 4 of the most prolific regs (1, 3, 6 and 10 in the rake race respectively so all are pretty crucial to the games longevity) have started checking down pots against each other. Another reg has called them out a few times and there was a big blow up a couple of nights ago when one of them flopped the nuts and bet, another raised with TPTK, everyone else folded and the two of them just checked turn and river. The result of that was the floor basically saying it's fine and now they are completely open about it.

Tonight I was playing 6 handed with the four of them, one of them BTN straddled and it was folded to another in the CO who open folded AJ. The BTN turned over AK and the had a laugh about it. I said WTF and they very clearly explained to me there was no point even playing the hands since they were just going to check it down anyway. They genuinely (I think) believe this is not an issue. This made me feel pretty uncomfortable and a couple of hands later I racked up and left.

For the sake of the discussion I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they really do have no intention to cheat other players, they are not going to actively collude and try to build pots or force other players out, they're just not going to play against each other.

What I'm wondering is how does this really effect me (and other players)? Is it something I need to worry about or is it something I should just be able to live with? Any and all thoughts on the topic are welcome as I feel I need to get my position clear before I can really discuss it with them and the room management.

Even if "they don't intend to cheat.”. What they are doing is going to impact play. At some point one of them will make a decision that is impacted by the fact that if they get heads up he won't have to face another bet. Or maybe they don't call or make a bet due to the lack of implied odds because they think it will just end up heads up with another partner, but if they didn't have this agreement the chance to win that stack would get them to bet or call.

Plus especially if 4 people in the game are going it, it tends to tamp down the action. Action creates action.

And if course it impacts the flow of money into the game. If they would lose their chips to each other than they may be buying more chips and thus increasing the total chips in play.

Thanks for the response.

One additional point. They claim that it is perfectly legal and there is no rule against it in cash games, only in tournaments. Is this true? How would a similar situation be handled in rooms you guys play in?

There is no single set of rules, especially for cash games, but it is against the basic RRoP rules:

Having said that, it occurs in most every room. Usually in a low stakes game where it's the same people playing against each other every day. Almost always a bunch of old guys who are there for entertainment and passing the time rather than "playing real poker".

In a room where there's only 1 table and the same guys make the game each week, it's unlikely the room is going to do anything to upset the apple cart. So learn to live with it, or play somewhere else. You can make your displeasure known, and even point them to this rule in RRoP (if they have a rulebook, it's probably in theirs too), but it's not likely to change anything in a room that small.

On the positive side, these guys are almost never trying to overtly cheat you. But as psand mentions above, it causes a number of other problems which can impact you negatively, if non-purposefully.

One player to a hand is a basic rule of poker. Clearly players coming into a game with an agreement about how they will play their hands against each other is team play and violates that rule.

However it is so common and poker rooms don't like to call players cheaters so it tends to be tolerated in many rooms. The fact that it gets tolerated tends to make people think it's ok to do it.

I have seen scenarios where players are told not to do it but mostly it gets ignored at least until other players start complaining. If enough of you want it to stop you could just sit out when these guys start doing. If you bring the game to a halt management sees revenue as a reason to take action.

You might want to talk to the room manager about it.

Based on OPs description, it’s questionable if the game would even regularly run without those 4 guys. That puts management in a tough spot if other players start to complain. At the end of the day, it might be playing against a group of guys who softplay each other or not play at all.

Based on my limited sample of playing in small rooms that only have one or two 1/2 tables going, I would say that I witnessed obvious softplay between regulars in the majority of them. They also do it so blatantly that there’s no way they even understand it’s against the rules. Which also means none of them is good at poker. If I had to decide between playing with a bunch of softplaying friends or a group of guys who actually know how to play the game, I’d always pick the second game.

Powerful incentive to check it down here....
Really not much you can do about this, unless the room is going to clamp down on these guys, who apparently represent a major % of their traffic.

Good post. I am the manager of a poker room similar to the one you describe on at least some days during the week where I have a small number of regs that will make or break the game at least during the early hours of the day. 2 of my most regular players have done exactly what you describe in the past and I knew they were doing it and so did my staff and some of the other regs. One day I talked to both of them away from the table about it and explained to them basically exactly what psandman said in the very first reply itt about how it affects play and how non-regs are going to be very concerned that they are colluding and it may cause them to just leave or not come back ever again to a room where this type of obvious thing is happening. They understood what I was saying and it basically stopped. Now these two have some common sense and are able to still limit what they put into a pot against each other without it looking so blatant and I see it, but it has solved the problem.


This is basically my take on it and what I would recommend to you is to simply ask to speak to the room manager and explain to him what you see and how it affects the play at the table and how it could easily make others feel as though they are being cheated. Approach it as though you are trying to help solve a potential loss of players and ask that they look into it and maybe have a chat with them about it. Simply a friendly suggestion that you see this hurting the room and that it certainly has you ready to stop coming as well.

There's no doubt in my mind that a seasoned player new to that room would sit down and have one hand where reg 1 bets into them and the new guy calls only to have reg 2 raise and reg 1 call and then they check it down and one tables the nuts and the other tables 2nd nuts or something like that. This seasoned player may say nothing at all and just leave or they may something to the dealer or the floor and if the response was "we allow that", this new player would leave and never come back. In fact most all new players to that room would leave and never come back thinking they were being cheated by the regs. 95% will not have the courage to say anything so management will not even realize they are losing players, let alone why they are losing players. Who knows, maybe this is part of the reason these players make up a large percentage of their total customer base...

An excellent post by Suit as usual, makes me wish I would someday run into a floor like him and not be subjected to the often bizarre, reg favoring rulings that seem commonplace to rec's like me.

I supose I am that "seasoned new player" that Suit refers to, since I've been playing poker for decades but only rarely play live, (even less now that poker tournaments have died out here in Vancouver. They used to draw me into the casino, which drew me into the cash games.)

My feeling is that soft play is definitely a form of collusion. It makes a recreational player like me feel targeted, especially if there are several players doing it. At it's worst, for instance in the old PLO game at Edgewater, I have seen it carried on to the extent that in two hours of play, almost no hand that the new guy (me) wasn't in went past the flop. You can bet I never bought back into that game.

I don't care how good you are. If the whole table is playing against you alone, and not against each other, you will have a hard time taking down a win unless you run like a god. And even if you do run like God and take down a win, what about next time? Can't run like God forever.

One thing I want to point out. While the players may not think of themselves as cheating .... do not equate this with total innocence...

After all they may not feel it is against the rules .... but they obviously feel they are gaining some advantage by doing this ..... otherwise why would they be doing it? They may be wrong about what the advantage is .... but that does not mean they are guilt free......

I say this because the more people think of them as innocent ... the more the behavior will spread. While it may not be practical to crack down on the behavior with an iron fist .... it is also important not to legitimize and normalize the behavior.


And one other thing... Its fine to say these 4 players make the game and there wouldn't be a game without them ..... but on the other hand maybe they are the reason other players stopped coming.....

Exactly. I had a chat with my regs for this exact reason. No one asked me to talk to them and no one every complained about it beyond the occasional dealer bringing it up. But I knew it was very easily possible that this spreads to 3 or 4 of the other regs because they are all buddies even outside of the casino. Its not good to have 2 players doing this, I couldn't imagine having 4-5 doing it.

Yes, maybe there would be 2 regular games by now if this had been stopped. Who knows.

I mean that other players should not think of them as Innocents. Even if they choose to tolerate the behavior they should not justify it.

They're not innocent at all. It is obviously benefitting them. A lot imo.

This is likely one very good reason why this room is so small. 1 table , sometimes two. Likely lots of folks have given it a try once in a while and voted with their feet. I know I would. OP is this your only option? If it is , I guess you may have to live with it or not play at all.

That’s not true. If they don’t collude postflop with you in the hand, it doesn’t matter how they play against each other after you folded preflop.

If anything, it’s often beneficial to you if they don’t bet postflop when a friend is in the hand because it lets you realize equity more often. It’s only -EV for you if they collude against you by betting/raising you out of pots for example. But that’s usually nothing those super passive softplay colluders do, especially not if they are that open about it. PLO games are even better than NL for you against those players because you more often benefit from them not being aggressive with each other which gives you way more chances to hit backdoor draws.

if its allowed then just create an = or greater size team on a shared bank roll and play against them. They are all ok with it, the staff and the other regs. Maybe they wont like it the other way around?

Knowing how they are likely to play, should increase your session profits.

If they are passive and checking, play some more hands that play well multi-way. Enjoy the free cards.

What? They fold when you bet/raise? Then bet/raise a bit more.

Oh No! They stopped folding and now all call? Enjoy the added cash when you do hit a hand.


Yes, a talk with the floor/manager away from the table should happen. Maybe they will understand, maybe they will do something about it. Not sure that the dealers are happy, as regs who won't bet, probably aren't tipping big. On a related note, tips might dry up for the dealer that speaks up at the table. The dealers may already have mentioned this to the floor/manager, who should be interested in bigger pots and more rake.

I'm surprised they don't run it twice. Ooops did I say that out loud, I was only thinking that.