The points you've raised I do agree with mostly, but I'll break it down a little bit and see if we can meet in the middle.

Firstly you mention it being equally as bad, which I don't think it is, I'm just saying it is technically an angle if you're doing something for a reason. Secondly you say OP could go to floor, much of my reply is based on the fact the player in question is friends with the room, and I assume floor - complaining about such players usually ends up in you getting shown the door, not them. This continues on with my point about OP saying everyone likes him, I'm assuming he doesn't do this often, as I'm not sure how your locals act... But around me people would not appreciate someone berating someone every time they played.

Moving onto your point about nits, and being good for the game, I would agree I love a soft 1/2 table that goes 4-5 ways to every flop, but that doesn't sound like OP at all, nor is it a 1/2 game. Remember that OP was pretty clear this player is friendly with most people in the room, so it's safe to say this isn't usual behavior.

Lastly going onto you saying it isn't worth being a jerk, I agree, which is why I said you won't find me doing it... However, I'm just saying I wouldn't mind if someone else did, and I've seen it done before, the whole table was happy. I'm not saying for certain what this guy did is right, because I wasn't there, my point is there's 2 sides to every story, and I suspect Op's hands aren't quite as clean as he makes out....

What would your UTG opening range look like?

Not showing to keep the game friendly is insane. You can show bluffs, and still be pleasant to each other. The point of the game is to bluff and take other people's money, it should be friendly but competitive. Would you rather play in a game where everyone is nice and passive or everyone is making crazy bluffs? I think we should be cultivating the best game we can so if the time is right, show a bluff.

As for OPs question: you absolutely did nothing wrong, the guy was a clown. The only thing I would say is if the guy is down heaps or just lost a big pot, then I don't think you should show. Showing then seems less out of a competitive angle and more predatory.

Yeah the sensitive comment is definitely a needle lol.

"My apologizes .. I'll go back into my shell now." In the mean time make a mental note that you actually do need to show a pretty strong hand 'next' to reestablish your image.

It seems you were dealing with an Alpha dog who took the 'mistake' to heart in the moment. Perhaps he was just trying to scare you back into your place of predictability?

For as much as I jibe with other Players I do get a bit hot when they 'get me'. I really shouldn't, but it's more of a me thing than a them thing. Unfortunately they will take it to heart of course as a byproduct. GL

I wouldn't worry about it and would ask him Next time you see him at the table if you are allowed to bluff tonight. It does sound like he was trying to control the table.

We were playing last night and a new couple were invited to a small card room The lady unsuccessfully bluffed river. Her husband started to berate her and everyone at the table defended the bluff as well-timed, unexpected and the only way she could win the pot. Husband sat in car while she played another half hour and she guaranteed she would be back Friday. His coworkers were laughing that showing the bluff tilted the wrong person, not even in the hand.

Can you elaborate on what definition of angle you are using where showing a bluff would qualify?

Angle shooting in poker is defined as using unethical, intentionally deceptive tactics to take advantage of (usually more inexperienced) opponents.
-First result on google.

Too break it down further;

Deceptive - First result on google
giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading.

So whether you class showing a bluff to needle and get under there skin as unethical really depends on you. I think the fact OP went on to call the guy sensitive when has reacted too it definitely shows that was his intention.

I'm a rules kind of guy, followed by keeping a happy atmosphere at the table.

Now firstly, as far as rules go, the player did absolutely nothing wrong... But his actions made someone upset at the table (and a guy liked by everyone at the table) which isn't going to make for a fun (and often more action) table. So if those are the limits he want's to set, I'd have no problem angle shooting him all day and reaping rewards from it. Poker too me is about fun, providing a good atmosphere for fun players too want to play in, as soon as someone wants to A)be a nit B)Upset players at the table don't be surprised when people turn on you.

Hold up, are you saying that the deception component of the angle is the bluff itself?

Is a bluff not deception?
Deception on its own is not angle shooting or bad etiquette, just when combined with turning it into a situation to tilt your opponent.

Once the bluff has worked, and you show your cards to try and annoy the player, or tilt him, then it is doing it.

Showing a bluff is not even close to being an angle shot. Whether or not your opponent gets tilted from it is their problem. People show bluffs as part of their strategy and metagame so they get called later when they have a big hand, just like if he shows the nuts after everyone folds so he can bluff later.

Poor etiquette would be something a lot worse like when someone raises after the whole table calls knowing no one has anything. That's horrible etiquette almost as bad as a chop blocker.

You genuinely believe that "unethical, intentionally deceptive tactics" describes any needling combined with a bluff because a bluff is intentionally deceptive. That is your honest, good-faith reading of the definition. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

We have officially heard it all.

OK, now I've seen everything.

You're trying to make something that's simply not.
I took the definition off google, and showed it met the criterea.

I really don't have a issue with someone showing a bluff, I think it's good for the game even from a nit... But to then complain about someone getting mad about it I find laughable. If you're gonna give, expect too take.

My final takeaways about the situation.

You bluffed a reg, who appears to be friends with most of the room. You went on too show the bluff too prove a point, then needled him afterwards - Then are upset he berated you and swapped to your left (the position it's easiest to outplay anyone?). Feel free to go back, do the same again, and this time complain to management, I'd be surprised if you're not shown the door before this player is. Don't pick fights with people more connected with you, not only in poker.. but in life, and if you do, don't complain about the outcome.

"Angle shooting in poker is defined as using unethical, intentionally deceptive tactics to take advantage of (usually more inexperienced) opponents."

Even accepting this definition (it is simplistic and lacking nuance, and fails to identify the many categories of angle shooting), neither the action of bluffing or showing a bluff qualifies.

Showing a bluff is in no way unethical. It may not be polite, but in no way does it compromised the integrity of the game, nor employ any morally questionable tactics. Showing a bluff is not deceptive, as it actually reveals information.

So, then you have the act of bluffing itself. While bluffing is undoubtedly deceptive, it is 100% acceptable within the context of poker game play. Some acts, for example check raising, used to be considered angles because they were considered deceptive and out of the context of the game, but that has not been the case with bluffing, ever. Deception alone has never been considered inappropriate in poker, as it is integral to the game. Due to the fact that it is foundational, a bluff is not considered unethical. Now is slow playing, trapping, check raising, minraising, overbetting, fake tells, wide 3betting, range balancing or any other of hundreds of strategies designed to obfuscate your hand strength.

The label 'angle' and 'angleshot' is not something that should be used casually or incorrectly, as it is, for some players, an attack on their integrity. Calling the action of bluffing, or showing a bluff, an angle is a misuse of the term, and will get you in a lot of trouble if you make this accusation to the wrong person.

That's the worst definition of angle I've ever seen.

I don’t get it. Why would anyone who knows anything about poker criticize OP here? Villain obviously knows very little about poker if he’s angry at being bluffed out of a pot. If you play good poker, you WILL get bluffed out of pots. Consider that playing a strategy of always calling any bet in any situation would be the only way to avoid being bluffed off a pot. Obviously that would be extremely detrimental to you win rate.

OP, I wouldn’t worry about it. I personally would not show bluffs, but not because of any unwritten rule, but rather that you’re giving awayp information to your opponents. If your opponents really aren’t calling you it likely isn’t your image; most likely they just don’t have a hand. Most live players don’t think much beyond their own hands. If it truly is because they think you’re a nit, don’t show, but bluff more frequently. Eventually you’ll be called and show a bluff. Don’t just give it away though; you can make some money off of future bluffs while the table still thinks you’re a nit.

how are there 40+ posts about OP doing nothing wrong?

Enlighten us.

CONTEXT. Not every definition is always perfectly applicable. In poker an angle has a very specific meaning. The definition you provided is correct in a general context but not for poker.

Showing a bluff is not an angle except in maybe a couple of very odd esoteric circumstances but not in these circumstances. Claiming otherwise is either naive or disingenuous.

No.


There are no further explanations necessary. It’s just that simple. If you’re trying to apply some additional nuance to it, that’s your issue, not a poker issue.

I think the thing people are fighting with most his reaction to being shown a bluff.
I would be surprised if a single person on this forum hadn't shown a bluff at one stage or another whilst playing poker.

Some people react badly, and actions always have reactions in life.

My whole point of replying is to make sure you don't **** off a regular that is friends with everyone, because it won't turn out well. I've been in my fair share of arguements, some not my fault (Much like OP) some my fault, but I'm just trying to make people aware, particularily OP. Showing your hand (whether to try and pretend you not tight, or too tilt the opponent) is always going to have a reaction, whether it good, bad or ugly.

The simplistic google definition(by the way, google does not define anything, it provides access to other sources. And you did not cite your source, so it should not be accepted that anything provided by 'google' is canon) defines and angle as being deceptive AND unethical.

A bluff is deceptive. Showing a bluff is not deceptive.

But under what value system can either action be considered unethical? Both actions are well within the rules, well within the context of accepted game play, and neither represents anything that lacks integrity.

Annoying or offensive is not the same as unethical, not even remotely. Showing a bluff is definitely usually a needle and can be a bad idea, but when you describe it as an angle or as unethical, you are diluting the meaning of those word.

I always, and I mean always, show a bluff to a table villain and encourage anyone else to do so.

(I also show every 7-2 bluff.)

When I can, I prefer showing one card that makes them wonder if I had it or not.

Guy sounds like an absolutely massive crybaby and I have zero sympathy for him. That said, some people will get upset when you show them a bluff. They don't like being beaten and will feel stupid. There are people in a poker room who will seize upon any excuse of 'poor etiquette' in order to throw a tantrum when they lose a pot. So understand that you might get this kind of reaction from the overly sensitive regs.

Personally speaking I like to be shown a bluff, free information is always welcome and I always say nice hand or even congratulate them if it was particularly audacious and I'm not too salty about it. But not everyone feels the same way.