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Old 11-07-2018, 10:09 PM   #1
Potwinner
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Should I be upset about this situation?

So today I was sitting in seat 1 in a live MTT tourney and there was 3 callers, than gets to me, I shove all in, 1 call, and while the rest of the table was in the middle of folding, the dealer grabbed my hand and put it in the muck, I didnt have any chips to protect my hand with since I was all in, but I didnt have my hand towards the edge or closer than normal to the dealer. My hand was considered dead, but my bet was live. 1 other guy called the all in because of the situation but regardless the outcome is my hand would have been the winning hand and gave me a decent chip stack to work with. I got upset of course, I didnt shout but I asked like is this serious? is this the reason I am losing the tournament? Than they said unfortunately its the rules, I said thats ridiculous, and I left the table, went to the poker room manager and explained the situation and she talked to the tournament manager, and he issued me a tournament ticket for an equal buy in tournament. I feel like maybe I over reacted here
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:22 PM   #2
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

You got lucky they gave you that ticket. 1st rule in poker is protect your hand.

I know you didn't have any chips to put on your cards .... Bu you have two hands (I assume) a mere 1 finger here prevents this...

It's ok to be upset ... But it isn't productive.
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:34 PM   #3
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

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You got lucky they gave you that ticket. 1st rule in poker is protect your hand.

I know you didn't have any chips to put on your cards .... Bu you have two hands (I assume) a mere 1 finger here prevents this...

It's ok to be upset ... But it isn't productive.

I think when I go to the next tournament im just going to apologize than. In the moment I was pretty upset because it was not how I saw myself getting knocked out of the tournament. I feel a little guilty for sure.
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:34 PM   #4
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Yes you should be upset, the dealer di d make a mistake. but how on earth do you sit in the 1 or 10 and not be aware of your cards and the dealer's hands at all time? it is a not uncommon mistake, the dealer sees unportected cards, and a player leaning back, he mucks without thinking.

Always protect your hand. The dealer may have made the mistake, but the ultimate responsibility is always the players. As mentioned above, getting a refund is much more than you will usually get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTN5l1Xjrks
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:34 PM   #5
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

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I said thats ridiculous
What do you think should be done? Your cards are gone, you didn't show them to anyone.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:46 PM   #6
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

If you speak up before another player calls, the floor could make you give up a call or minraise and let you keep your remaining stack.

Since another player had already called, there aren’t many options for the floor.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:46 AM   #7
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

NO reason to apologize unless you went overboard somehow and it will make you feel better. The issue is long done and over with as far as staff is concerned, or at least should be. Hopefully both you and the Dealer learned from the spot.

There is a famous spot from the WSOP where a Player in Seat 10 had their cards pulled in as well .. try YouTube for that one. Same result, hand mucked and chips lost.

Always keep you hands on your cards, even if there's an 'All In' button in front of you until you or the Dealer flips them over for a Showdown/running out of the Board. GL
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:02 AM   #8
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

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NO reason to apologize unless you went overboard somehow and it will make you feel better. The issue is long done and over with as far as staff is concerned, or at least should be. Hopefully both you and the Dealer learned from the spot.

There is a famous spot from the WSOP where a Player in Seat 10 had their cards pulled in as well .. try YouTube for that one. Same result, hand mucked and chips lost.

Always keep you hands on your cards, even if there's an 'All In' button in front of you until you or the Dealer flips them over for a Showdown/running out of the Board. GL
Link is upthread
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:36 AM   #9
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

I've seen this happen before as well. And I know its splitting hairs, but I think in these cases, the player should be allowed to play the board as their hand. Probably wouldn't help in 99.9% of cases, but better than nothing.
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:59 AM   #10
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

It was very very frustrating to have it happen to me, especially since I was the initial person to move all in, the dealer didnt give me the all in button, which they normally always do, and I was waiting patient for the hand. It felt worse than getting a bad beat. Im over it at this point, and I didnt act irrational but needless to say ill be freerolling in the tourney today. Gonna have PTSD in the 1 or 10 for now on though lol
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Old 11-08-2018, 10:53 AM   #11
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

I use a card protector. Lots of folks think that is not "cool" these days. OTOH I have never had a dealer move my protector and muck my cards either. Especially when you are in seats well within easy reach , you need to protect your hand and pay attention. This is certainly a dealer error, but if a driver hits you in a crosswalk you still are dead or injured due to driver error. Dumbass stuff happens all the time at live poker tables. Stay alert and protect your action.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:01 AM   #12
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Keep in mind you need to protect from more than just dealer error. You also don't want to have a player tossing their cards towards the muck accidentally mix them in with your cards....
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:47 AM   #13
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

As a dealer, I always try to warn the 1 and 10 to protect their hand. Especially the 1 since that's the side where I have the muck pile, so people are throwing cards in that vicinity. I tell them I won't muck their hand, but that a dealer may or a player may cause it to be mucked.

I would say 5-10% of the time, they start protecting, 50% just stare vacantly, and 40-45% seem mildly annoyed that I am trying to tell them what to do. Then they come post threads like this later.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:08 PM   #14
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

You should always protect your hand, especially in Seats 1 and 9/10.

That being said, there are differing degrees of protection. There's like pull out protection, single bag protection, and double bag protection, and I think the tendency after something bad like this happens is to double bag everything, which fine from a safety standpoint but terrible from an enjoyment standpoint.

It costs very little to get from 0% to 90% protection (preventing 90% of screwups). It costs way more to get from 90% to 99%, and even more to get from 99% to 99.9%, etc. There's no 100% protection.

A bunch of places around here give an all-in button. I usually just put that on top of my chips. That's usually good enough - I haven't put in a ton of hours but I haven't had a problem. If I played at places without a button, I might go buy a card protector and bring it with me. If I played at higher stakes I might put even more effort. Certainly if I had a year's salary in the middle, I'd have a finger fortress around my cards.

It slows down the game when every $30 pot ends with "you throw me idol i throw you rope."
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:17 PM   #15
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Oh and OP should apologize next time, whether he thinks he was right or wrong.

I dislike the societal trend where every apology is construed as some kind of admission that you're a beta cuck. It's okay to apologize for losing your temper or being angry while maintaining that you were right.

If they (dealer or mangement) want to be dicks about it, just withhold tips until you've recovered the expected value you think you lost. But unless you were on the bubble or something, getting a do-over is way better than continuing with a short stack.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:28 PM   #16
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Well it's not clear if he got out of line ... So I'm not sure an apology is needed. But they are always welcome.

Last night a player apologized to me for something that I have no recollection of. He told me that in the past he had acted inappropriately and thought I handled it very well.

I don't remember the incident or even having seen him before but I appreciate that he has reflected on whatever it was and isn't angry with me.
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:20 PM   #17
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Just to clarify I wasnt rude towards them but visibly upset, and just lost my cool and went straight to the poker room manager. never insulted anyone, or directed any anger towards a particular person. For me regardless im going to apologize just to make sure there isnt any misunderstanding, Im newer in town and its the closest card room to me and I enjoy the tourneys so def plan on frequenting. After this thread its clear that I need to be more cautious about my hand when all in, and in general.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:26 PM   #18
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

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Originally Posted by Potwinner View Post
Just to clarify
.
Quote:
What do you think should be done? Your cards are gone, you didn't show them to anyone.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:20 PM   #19
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Would I be upset? Yeah of course, the dealer messed up. But there isn't anything that can be done about it unless the hand is identifiable. One major rule poker players must follow is to protect their action. "But I didn't have any chips left!" There are other ways to protect your cards, namely keeping your hands on them. I'm actually shocked that they gave you your buy-in back. There's no way I would do that. The best I would think I could have done for you would be some kind of food comp.

It's an expensive lesson, one that I doubt you'll need a second time.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:44 PM   #20
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

I would definitely be upset! Not at the dealer but at myself for not protecting my cards.

You don't need a chip over them (it's not always going to protect them from other players throwing their cards into them while folding). Just hold the cards with one hand over it with your thumb and ring finger on the sides and your index finger on top.
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Old 11-08-2018, 07:30 PM   #21
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

You want to get to the point where you feel naked if your hand isn't protected by the "finger cage" described above. I would feel especially weird if all of my chips were bet and my cards were just sitting there on the felt, let alone in arm's reach of the dealer.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:55 AM   #22
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Seats 1 and 10 should also fold past the line. Mucking should be very exaggerated compared to other seats. If a tired dealer gets used to reaching into your area to muck cards, he might eventually muck a hand you want to keep.
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Old 11-09-2018, 07:31 AM   #23
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
You want to get to the point where you feel naked if your hand isn't protected by the "finger cage" described above. I would feel especially weird if all of my chips were bet and my cards were just sitting there on the felt, let alone in arm's reach of the dealer.
It's funny you mention this naked feeling because it's how I would describe it too. I get the same feeling when I'm dealing and there is no muck because no one folded preflop. It just feels like something is wrong.


I'm always in possession of my cards when I'm playing a hand.
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:06 AM   #24
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

I cringe a little when I see the way many players are so casual about leaving their cards completely unprotected, with hundreds of blinds in the middle.

It doesn’t take much effort to put your cards in “the cage”... using both hands, each corner covered by a thumb and index finger.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:37 PM   #25
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Re: Should I be upset about this situation?

I like how either one's cards are either completely unprotected and flapping in the wind, or there's a finger fortress with poison tipped spikes, and no middle ground.

JFC guys, just reach into one of the planters outside the casino and pull out an appropriately sized rock if you're naked without a chip protector.
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