This I is never, and should never be, a bet of 1500. He said 15 and tossed out 15,000. There is no ambiguity. The rule that has been cited is only used when a player says one amount that could have multiple meanings and does not put any chips into the pot. That rule should not even be considered when the player also puts in an amount of chips at the same time. The bet will always be the amount of chips put in if it matches what was said as it does in this case.

This. Not sure why there's confusion here. Any ambiguity in the verbal of "15" is cleared up by throwing in exactly 15k.

It makes a difference if the chips went in around the same time or they went in later.

If they went in a few seconds later, old TDA says it's 1500. Current TDA says it's 15k. It sounds like their house rules are based off the old TDA. Dealer should clarify right away but we can't always get the words out immediately. Best to wait a couple of seconds to make sure you know what the bet is before acting.

Dealers should be following the rules, not letting the players run things. This leads to angle shooting. You argued it should be 15k because you wanted him to go all in with the rest of his chips. If you had wanted it to be the smaller amount you wouldn't have said anything. If the rule is bad then talk to the manager and suggest it be updated.

In all fairness I think his argument was more because he acted based on seeing 15 k go in. Had the bet been clarified as 1500 he probably makes a different bet (if opponent truly was on pure bluff it doesn't matter but he can't know that while this is happening)

Rule was changed recently to floor can use discretion for intent here... Or bet relative to size of the pot.... If dealer was following TDA rules floor would have been called and ruled 15k was more appropriate to the pot size.

Well, if he had the chips in hand and verbaled then tossed them in within milliseconds, it's ridiculous to rule both that the verbal declaration takes precedence and that the verbal declaration is 1500. Having 15k chips in hand ready to throw in pretty much resolves the ambiguity.

If he said 15, paused a few seconds (or went back to his stack), and then tossed the 15k then now you should apply the rule about ambiguous declarations (bad as it is) because now it's subject to angling. Say something ambiguous, look for the tell, then clarify--that's liable to angling.

Area between say 500 milliseconds and 3 seconds' delay is a judgment call by the TD but a lot of things should be judgment calls involving common sense. Neither ruling would be egregious (given the really bad house rule). Turning poker into a haven for rules lawyers is not in the long-term interest of the game.


Always. Seems unlikely this was an angle but it's good to protect yourself against angling.

If in doubt I would ask "What is the action?" Note that this question doesn't contain any numbers or the words bet, raise, call, fold. If you ask, "Does that mean 15 thousand?" they can mishear and now you're the one raising to 15k!

I think absolutely dealers should be able to use common sense. Problem is that not all dealers play the game as well, so not all of them will be able to use it. What's common sense to me and you might not be common sense to the person who has never gambled a dime in their life.

I don't think that is the issue... After all at the table full of poker players they won't all agree on what is common sense.

That's a terrible ruling and a stupid dealer

I don't get why this thread is about the dealer using common sense. Is anyone really advocating that dealers should freelance and try to ignore stupid house rules? (They might not get 5 hands a down if they did that in Washington.)

The floor should have the latitude to use common sense, but even then it's a lot to ask them to mitigate a written rule on the margins. In the OP no reasonable person would have a problem with the ruling that obviously the bettor meant fifteen thousand, and any unreasonable person who wants to embarrass themselves before the gaming authorities should be allowed to do so.

AKQJ10

Your point is a good one and perhaps the correct question should be about the floor using common sense
My first thoughts were that if the dealer was allowed to use their own judgement the game would flow better rather than arguing a point ,then calling floor, then arguing point again
But as long as dealers are following the rules as set out by the cardroom then the floor should be able to use common sense to interpret the situation, unfortunately at the cardroom in question they always follow the rules to the letter

I have brought up the point that was mentioned on here that the TDA rules dealing with this scenario had recently been updated but was told that this cardroom (and all of this groups cardrooms) had not changed their ruling

Good luck at the tables

Terry P

In general, floors can and do use common sense to make rulings. This is commonly referred to as rule 1: the floor can make a ruling that is contrary to other stated rules if it is in the best interest of the game.

The fact that the floor agreed with the dealer suggests they were following the house rules. The floor wouldn't even have been called if you hadn't raised a fuss, and floors going against house rules only in cases where players yell loudly enough just leads to more problems.

They have a bad rule that needs to be fixed, not one of lower level people failing to use "common sense"

What's your guys' room rulings on this...say it's a tourney, blinds are like 500/1k. Pot is like 30k. Someone says "15" and after tosses a 25k chip in the middle. Since he verbalized 15, is that automatically a 1500 bet? That's the ruling at my new room, just seems really strange. Maybe my old room was like that and it literally never came up, but I don't think so. As far as I know, the dealer clarified any ambiguity like that by repeating the action to the player, or it was just apparent by the amount of chips put in after by the player (e.g. 3 5k chips is obviously a 15k bet).

There was just a thread about this exact issue (even the amounts are the same):

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...sense-1713752/

Summary:

It used to be that any time an ambiguous action was made, the player would be forced to make it the smallest or least aggressive action possible. In this case, 1500 is a valid bet, so it's forced to be 1500 because we don't "KNOW" that he was trying to make it 15K.

TDA updated their ruleset, and not all places use it, but most do. Now in the same scenario, if there is less than 15K in the pot, the bet will be 1500, and if there is 15K or more in the pot, the bet will be 15K.

I see it a lot in earlyish levels of tournaments where the blinds are 100/200 and someone throws a 5K chip and says "Four". If there is 4K+ in the pot, they made it 4000, if there's less, then it's 400. Obviously if the blinds at that point are 300/600, the player can't make it 400 so it's always going to be 4000.


Protect yourself. Say that you mean.

Yeah, I guess my new room doesn't go by that update. It seems like a terrible rule to me, punishes casual players through an unnecessary technicality and creates more angles than it stops.

The new rule is the good one, where it squares with intent and reduces angleshoots. The old rule is the one where it was always the smallest amount.

People don't throw a 5k chip into a big pot and say "4" and mean "400" basically ever unless they are bluffing and angling and want their opponent to fold thinking it's 4000 and, if called, they can claim they meant 400 and get 4600 change.

Am I completely missing something here? 1500 isn't even a valid open if the blinds are 600/1200 let alone a 3bet after Hero already raised to 4k. Somehow Villain managed to see a flop for 1.5bb in a pot that was already raised to 3.5bb in front of him?

Yes, you're missing that this "15" bet was OTF, not PF.

What is the minimum bet on the turn? What is the minimum bet on the river?

this is the action:

I'm not sure what you're looking at?

Sorry please ignore my idiocy and carry on.