I've been lurking here for a while, thought I'd post what I thought was an interesting situation and I was wondering what the proper way to handle it is - if there even is a proper way.

Playing PLO live. I was on the button, but it's irrelevant. Dealer deals all the cards accidentally gives the small blind a 5th card which I didn't notice or I would have obviously said something. A few calls are made and right before the action is on me, the SB looks at his cards and realizes he has a 5th card.

What is the proper way to handle this since there was action around the table?

I have some thoughts as to how I would handle it, but I'm sure it's wrong. Without being sure which card the fifth card is, I'd say to put them all face down, have the dealer pull a random card out and that becomes an exposed burn card for everyone to see. I know this isn't correct, but it's the only fair way I can see doing anything.

The dealer essentially just killed the hand which I don't necessarily think is correct since he lost a blind (granted it's small, but that shouldn't matter out of principal). I think the dealer did give him the small blind back possibly out of his tips or whatever. So *shrug*, no good way to handle this I guess.

-d

Room dependent, but I believe protect your hand gets enacted in that spot and the hand gets killed. Similar to having a ton of action and you look down and have two of the same card in your hand, or a joker. It's up to you to make sure you have a non fouled hand in a reasonable amount of time.

I've also seen the entire hand get backed up and the hand gets redealt. So, I go back to room dependant. Lol

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The proper way to handle it is that his hand is dead. The player is responsible for ensuring his hand has the proper number of cards before (significant) action has occurred, and in this case he didn't.

In a small or friendly enough game, I'm not adverse to the scramble method if everyone is convinced he didn't look or isn't angling, but that would be an exceptional ruling.

ETA: if the player has the right number of cards and looks at them when it's on him and discovers a dupe card or joker, that is actually something different. As long as he alerts immediately once he looks, it is a voided hand and all money is returned and the hand redealt.

hand is dead

I imagine a vast majority of players would have no problem giving him SB back once the pot is pushed to them

I hope there aren't many rooms that don't kill the hand.

I wonder what people would think should be done after the hand is killed - should the dealer still burn a card before the flop?

Some will say that if he burns then that will change the "Sacred order" of the cards, as the flop will be different than if the hand had been dealt properly. But if there is no burn here, that defeats the actual purpose of the burn card, as the top card in the deck could possibly be marked.

To those that insist the hand must be dead, how do you handle the following common scenarios:

1. People start acting before the dealer has finished dealing cards, i.e., significant action has already occurred.

2. The dealer finishes dealing but the SB doesn't look at his cards right away - either because he's eating or just waiting to make sure it isn't chopped in a tight game.

I think a policy of "the hand may be dead" coupled with a lot of reluctance to actually kill the hand is going to serve everyone well.

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Also, this is fundamentally the dealer's fault so anyone who claims it's the player's responsibility is fighting an uphill battle.

1- I don't start the "significant action" clock until the deal is complete.

2- tough **** for him. His responsibility is to count his cards before action occurs.

From Roberts Rules of Poker :

According to RRoP, that hand is dead 100%. But not every room goes strictly by RRoP so I once again say room dependent.

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Dead hand 100%.

You are responsible for protecting your hand. This includes ensuring your hand contains the proper number of cards for the game you are playing.

Just to clarify in case someone new to casino poker read this, the hand isn't dead until he accepts the 5th cards. When the dealer deals the 5th card, if he physically protects his hand so that the card does not enter, he has a valid 4 card hand and the dealer has a card to pick up and do something with.

Very funny, just now I was playing O8 at the Orleans and the SB was given an extra card. He didn't notice and say anything until the action was all the way to the button.

The floor just shuffled his cards and gave one back to the dealer to use as the burn card. I was surprised about the ruling, but then I don't have much respect for the floors here.

Dead hand in all the rooms I've played in.

I am not surprised by this ruling because I have seen the same thing happen in the O8 game at the Oaks (in Emeryville, Calif.) many times. The problem with declaring the hand dead is that the player will object that it wasn't his fault, much debate will ensue, and the game will stall. O8 is slow enough as it is, so no one objects to a ruling that allows the hand to proceed promptly.

Sometimes a player not on the button will end up with 3 cards. Is that supposed to be a misdeal, or is that player's hand supposed to be declared dead? What I often see is that the dealer simply gives that player the next card off the deck and doesn't even bother to call the floor.

This. As long as the player pays attention, his hand won't be unfairly killed.

FWIW, I remember now a little better now that you mention it. The dealer in fact killed the hand and since the 'burn card' was already in his hand, no burn card was used to protect the 'sacred order'

The dealer did give him his small blind back since nobody objected.
The dealer did say that if he was at the casino he normally deals at, the small blind would stay in the pot. This was at one of those games where the charity gets the rake and it's a little more lax.

Interesting the way the Orleans handled it, since I didn't think it was right, but instinctively I think it's the most fair way to handle it.

-d

If he notifies the dealer before action has occurred (2-3 players acting, depending on the room and sometimes whether they fold, call, or raise), it is a misdeal. If he doesn't notify until after action on the hand has occurred, it is a dead hand.

The only player who can get the top card off the deck at any time (up until he acts) if he is one card short is the button.

The disproportionate amount of player's blame compared to dealer's blame is disturbing.

If I were a spiteful dealer dealing to you guys, I would definitely be sending you and extra cards in the SB whenever I see your guards down to highlight that it is at least as much the dealer's fault.

The dealers get paid to be greater than 99.99% vigilant. That's their job.

Players should protect their cards, sure, but are ultimately there to have fun. It's unreasonable to expect that you should clutch your hand like it's the One Ring because the dealer will refuse responsibility unless you block an extra card midair. Or, perhaps more accurately, games that force players to behave like this are going to be short on fun players.

The obvious answer is to feed a random card to the predatory muck roaming around the table.

This has nothing to do with blame. I've been dealing for years, and the number of players who have thin skins when it comes to feeling like they're being blamed or called out is almost laughable. At least a few times a week I'll try to help or correct a player for something innocent like not protecting their cards or acting out of turn and they'll get super-defensive about it.

I'm not there to call out every little transgression in an aggressive manner but some players can't handle being identified as doing the least little thing wrong and are unable to accept constructive criticism.

If you're in the small blind (or any other position at the table) and you have too many cards it's an illegal hand and your hand is killed. It's in every rule book of every card room I've ever worked in or played in. It doesn't mean you're a cheater or a bad person.

And it's your job to protect your hand. It's your money on the table. Players make mistakes. Dealers make mistakes. These things happen and we're not going to punish 8 other players at the table or change the rules just because the guy in the SB wasn't paying attention to the game.

And as a dealer, if I'm constantly dealing out illegal hands I'd expect that the floor will notice it and that I'll be reprimanded or worse if it becomes a habit. And if they notice that I'm constantly putting one or two players who I don't like in these situations I'll expect to be disciplined appropriately for it, up to being fired.

It feels like walking on egg shells just to get people to keep their big chips out front or making sure their cards aren't flashing every time they muck. Or telling them to make sure they say "call" when putting out a t1000 chip and a t100 chip out to call a t600 bet when they obviously just want a t500 chip change. Always met with a snotty, "What??? I'm just trying to make it easier for you! If you don't want my help...."


Sigh.

There are many ways to 'get even' with players, but the fact is most of us like and respect our jobs, and FWIW (though I would never do any of these) this would not be the way I would be spiteful, there are much more creative things to do.

In this situation it's a given the dealer screwed up, what more is there to say?

I'm not entirely sure, my thought on this might be that the player should be paying enough attention to the game to recognize once he has 4 cards. Then when the 5th one starts coming it's an easy "oops take that one back dealer"

If you've had 4 cards in fron of you long enough for a couple of players to act, and you aren't paying attention whatsoever, you might be the type of player that slows games down in an annoying manner.

This reminds me of how annoying it is when a misdeal is caused because players aren't watching when the cards are being dealt, and then they pick up the wrong cards.

Unless the player has 5 cards because he pulled in one of his neighbor's cards, who now has 3.