Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-12-2017, 07:33 PM   #1
rubbrband
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
rubbrband's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: R VA
Posts: 10,176
Running it twice: love it or hate it?

RiT in theory is great. I generally RiT whenever people want unless it's a small pot. The problem is in practice you get people who want to only RiT when ahead and want to see the other players cards 1st. Then they take forever to decide, or it creates and argument. It also takes extra time if the dealer has to wait and see if players want to RiT even if they don't.
rubbrband is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2017, 09:04 PM   #2
weiskoda
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 16
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
Johnny, shame on you for attempting to introduce variance into poker.
He's not attempting to "introduce variance" in poker - He's arguably "introducing more variance"
weiskoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2017, 09:32 PM   #3
W0X0F
sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight
 
W0X0F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,902
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini View Post
Johnny, shame on you for attempting to introduce variance into poker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weiskoda View Post
He's not attempting to "introduce variance" in poker - He's arguably "introducing more variance"
And here I thought running it twice actually reduces variance.
W0X0F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2017, 01:37 PM   #4
NoSoup4U
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,109
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

FWIW, I hate RIT because it slows things down and leads to more stupid split pots and less tilt from suckout victims. I don't really care a great deal, but I always refuse to do it if I'm in the hand.
NoSoup4U is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2017, 02:18 PM   #5
Iuomo
journeyman
 
Iuomo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: down by the river
Posts: 203
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Imo: if you run it twice, you shouldn't be playing that high.
Iuomo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #6
rubbrband
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
rubbrband's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: R VA
Posts: 10,176
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iuomo View Post
Imo: if you run it twice, you shouldn't be playing that high.
Even if this were true, you could argue RiT allows people to play higher.
rubbrband is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 09:38 AM   #7
repulse
veteran
 
repulse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 3,069
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iuomo View Post
Imo: if you run it twice, you shouldn't be playing that high.
Nah. For any bankroll size and any level of risk aversion or risk-neutrality (as US income taxes introduce effective risk aversion), all rational players would always personally prefer any amount of variance reduction with no change to EV. There are certainly interpersonal/metagame factors that might compel rational players to not RIT but this isn't one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubbrband View Post
Even if this were true, you could argue RiT allows people to play higher.
Yep, and I do believe people do decide to play higher for this reason.
repulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 01:30 PM   #8
Bene Gesserit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 6,126
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

RIT has been discussed a lot on other threads. There is no consensus I can understand. We allow it in our homegames HU only, but I can't remember a time I ever saw it at a casino table. Likely it does happen sometimes in some casinos where it is allowed. I consider it a waste of time, most of the time.
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 02:21 PM   #9
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,218
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubbrband View Post
RiT in theory is great.
I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by repulse View Post
... all rational players would always personally prefer any amount of variance reduction with no change to EV...
For the game as a whole, I prefer higher variance. Variance is your friend. It allows those not as good as you to win sometimes and give them the illusion of being a winning player. Not allowing variance to be lowered (RIT) also encourages people to fold when they have a close decision.
Didace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 02:32 PM   #10
TDMarathon86
journeyman
 
TDMarathon86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 26.2 miles away
Posts: 258
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
It allows those not as good as you to win sometimes and give them the illusion of being a winning player.
Agree with this. Variance allows a worse player to sometimes enjoy success while running above expectation. Similarly, it allows hero (assuming hero is better player) to sometimes run below expectation. All other things equal, however, the edge is still there.

Giving villain confidence to keep playing A) keeps his/her hobby alive and B) keeps money on the table
TDMarathon86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 02:37 PM   #11
MIB211
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,903
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I play almost only home games so think about this a lot.

My game is 1/2 deep stack. If pot is 500 or less I really don't care about running it twice. More than 1000 I generally prefer it. In between just depends.

If I'm in with a fish or whale or someone I like ill do whatever they want. Some regs really want to run it multiple times to avoid variance. I usually won't do it with them unless pot is huge because this desire is usually correlated with over folding and I want them to be afraid to call me.
MIB211 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 02:49 PM   #12
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,182
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
I disagree.
For the game as a whole, I prefer higher variance. Variance is your friend. It allows those not as good as you to win sometimes and give them the illusion of being a winning player. Not allowing variance to be lowered (RIT) also encourages people to fold when they have a close decision.
I would imagine there's an "optimum" level of variance that you want in a poker game that keeps losers happy while rewarding the house/winning player over time. I'm sure I sure a documentary on gambling that talked about this, and how slot machines in particular are geared to just the right level of pay outs. Something like those video slots where they have a couple of dozen lines, it's actually possible to pay out too frequently to the point that even though there's still a house edge it's not fun for the losing player.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 04:04 PM   #13
rubbrband
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
rubbrband's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: R VA
Posts: 10,176
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I've played plo home games where you can RiT six ways three times and it works great because all of the players already know who does and doesn't RiT. The dealers are amazing at chopping the pots and it goes really fast. Nothing about the casino games work this smoothly so I wouldn't compare RiT in casino to home games.
rubbrband is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 04:47 PM   #14
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,218
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
... how slot machines in particular are geared to just the right level of pay outs...
Some slots pay out small amounts frequently because many people want to experience frequent "winning". Other slots payout less frequently but in great big chunks because some people don't want to mess around with the little "wins", they want the jackpot. Both sets of people know they are negative EV against the house, their "fun" just comes in different ways. I expect it is the same with poker players that know they don't have an edge.
Didace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 05:25 PM   #15
OmahaFanatical4
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,128
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

i always run it the maximum times allowed
OmahaFanatical4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 03:39 AM   #16
borg23
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 7,458
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

Hate it.slows the game down,results in less money being on the table and helps prevents tons of players from tilting. Most people also suck if they get deep stacked.There is no upside if properly rolled and you can emotionally handle swings.
borg23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 08:23 AM   #17
YGOchamp
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,180
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I hate it too for the most part.

Your edge is being able to handle variance better then your opponents. Not to mention I'd rather have somebody really deep and the other guy reloading.

A lot of people have this "always run it twice or never" sort of mentality which is just silly. I just tell people it depends, but if you absolutely must know, assume I'm not running it twice. Because chances are once the moneys in and its a massive pot I dont mind running it twice on a 60/40 or w/e, but I can't have an "always run it twice" set up because I dont ever want to overbet shove the turn with like As2x on K954csss and get called by KsQh only because he thought we could run it twice. This goes both ways of course, as I can have the nuts and get him to call drawing dead because he can run it twice... but you can only make the nuts so often ya know

I have mixed feelings about its place in the game, because on one hand I do feel like it keeps a lot of rec players happy and more willing to gamble
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 08:41 AM   #18
kingofsports
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 66
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I play mainly PLO so this logic might be different for NLHE.

If I have a made hand already, and I think my opponent is on a drawing hand, I ask to run it twice. This will allow me favorable results since if they hit outs to hit their hand, thats less outs for them to hit in the 2nd draw.

If I'm on a draw such as a flush draw, I always ask to run it once.
kingofsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 09:11 AM   #19
ATrainBoston
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 262
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I always say no; my thinking is that people playing pots against me get a little more cautious and less aggressive. They have in the back of their head '****, this guy never will RIT.; I better keep the pot small or fold". It makes the table fear you. But of course I really can't tell for sure how well this works.
ATrainBoston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 03:20 PM   #20
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,182
Re: MGM National Harbor Resort & Casino (Oxon Hill, MD); FAQ in OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
Some slots pay out small amounts frequently because many people want to experience frequent "winning". Other slots payout less frequently but in great big chunks because some people don't want to mess around with the little "wins", they want the jackpot. Both sets of people know they are negative EV against the house, their "fun" just comes in different ways. I expect it is the same with poker players that know they don't have an edge.
Some punters will prefer different set ups (hence slots where you can choose how many lines to play and such) but there are regions that will have higher popularity. I know there's conditioning experiments on these lines where they find being rewarded too much isn't as motivating as only being rewarded some of the time.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 08:03 PM   #21
2pairsof2s
adept
 
2pairsof2s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cashier screen at Pokerstars
Posts: 904
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I don't care for it. I don't do it on-line. It has no effect on long term odds or variance, only on short term variance, which we're supposed to ignore anyway. And it seems kind of tacky, giving some loser extra chances like it's a pity party, or begging extra kicks at the can because you suck and you got it in bad. So meh.
2pairsof2s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 10:28 PM   #22
OmahaFanatical4
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,128
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

If you have the edge then in the long run you get all the money; the problem is in the short run you can get pretty unlucky and end up losing your bankroll or a significant portion thereof. So it is good for a winning player to reduce their variance, especially if it comes at no cost to your winrate. A skilled blackjack player might abstain from doubling A6 v 2, even though at virtually any plus count the double will have a slightly higher expected value, because the modest increase in EV does not compensate you sufficiently for the increased risk compared with hitting. This is especially the case of the full kelly bettor who has wagered say 1.5% of their bankroll on their hand at TC +4 for example.
OmahaFanatical4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 11:29 PM   #23
spring83
Jack of all trades
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 3,233
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

RIT vs fun players if they want to, and RIO vs almost all pros or anyone bad for the game.
spring83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2017, 07:04 AM   #24
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,182
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

I just agree to whatever the opponent wants.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2017, 12:39 PM   #25
Bene Gesserit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 6,126
Re: Running it twice: love it or hate it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
I just agree to whatever the opponent wants.
Kinda this. I think RIT twice is a waste of time mostly, but debating it with somebody just wastes more time. Just my opinion.
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online