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Old 02-12-2019, 11:38 PM   #1
Joshfan
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Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Just want thoughts on this ruling

In a tournament, blinds 2.5k/5k

Player1 goes all in from ep for around 55k, folds around to player2 in mp
who announces 11 and throws out 11k.
It's player2s first hand at the table and he didn't see player1 go all in.

Floor ended up ruling that if player2 didn't want to call the full all in, he had to lose the 11k he bet.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:51 PM   #2
checkraisdraw
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re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

There’s no way to answer this question without knowing the house rules. At my casino, with no action behind he would be able to take it back since it was clear he did not know there was a raise.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:11 AM   #3
Joshfan
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re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Looking at the available rules I don't see anything directly covering this situation http://www.gukpt.com/about/gukpt-rules/
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:46 AM   #4
Had2Call
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re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

According to TDA rules, it is an undercall. If he undercalled the opening bet of a round, he would be required to call the full bet. In the TDA rules,the blinds count as the opening bet preflop. Since it appears in the OP that this is preflop and someone else already raised the opening bet, TDA rules leaves it up to the tounament directors discretion whether to make the player call the full amount or forfiet the 11k. As a note, TDA rules dont allow for gross misunderstanding per se.

I would have posted the rule but for some reason my ipad isnt copying today.
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:57 AM   #5
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re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Here's the TDA rule:
Quote:
A player undercalls by declaring or pushing out less than the call amount without first declaring “call”. An undercall is a mandatory full call if made in turn facing 1) any bet heads-up or 2) the opening bet on any round multi-way. In other situations, TD’s discretion applies. The opening bet is the first chip bet of each betting round (not a check). In blind games the posted BB is the pre-flop opener. All-in buttons reduce undercall frequency (See Recommended Procedure 1). This rule governs when players must make a full call and when, at TDs discretion they may forfeit an undercall and fold.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:21 AM   #6
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

As above. This is a standard tournament ruling, given by TD discretion.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:26 AM   #7
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

At the rooms I play in, this would have been handled the same was as the floor did in the OP. occasionally, a dealer will push back the bet and inform the acting player that a raise has been made. If a floor is called, though, the ruling is almost always 'undercall stays in, you may call, raise, or fold'. I say almost always as I can think of once or twice where extenuating circumstances (like the player announced verbally. but not loudly, and then tossed in a single chip, and the dealer did repeat the declaration before the next player acted on what he thought was a call)
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:56 AM   #8
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

This resolution is becoming the norm. And as stated the Dealers will usually allow the Player to take it back but if a Player complains/calls Floor then it will end up with the 11K staying across 'the line' and action remains on the 'offending' Player. GL
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:51 PM   #9
WilGil
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Why does TDA not follow gross misunderstanding? If the undercall didn't cause action from players behind, then allowing him to take his bet back would seem fair.
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:29 PM   #10
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
This resolution is becoming the norm. And as stated the Dealers will usually allow the Player to take it back but if a Player complains/calls Floor then it will end up with the 11K staying across 'the line' and action remains on the 'offending' Player. GL
I've never seen a dealer allow a player to take back a bet in a tournament.

FWIW I got into this same situation at a WSOP event. I asked Matt Savage about it later and he just said the bet stays in the pot, but I wasn't obligated to call the all-in.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:22 PM   #11
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
This resolution is becoming the norm. And as stated the Dealers will usually allow the Player to take it back but if a Player complains/calls Floor then it will end up with the 11K staying across 'the line' and action remains on the 'offending' Player. GL
Dealers shouldn't be pushing these back. It shouldn't be up to the players to decide whether the rules are enforced or not.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:14 AM   #12
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
I've never seen a dealer allow a player to take back a bet in a tournament.

FWIW I got into this same situation at a WSOP event. I asked Matt Savage about it later and he just said the bet stays in the pot, but I wasn't obligated to call the all-in.
I see it all the time, usually at lower stakes dailies(though I think I have seen at circuit events as well). A good dealer does it very quickly and smoothly. Almost as soon as the acting player undercalls, the dealer pushes the bet back while announcing the size of the bet the player is making.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:32 AM   #13
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

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Originally Posted by WilGil View Post
Why does TDA not follow gross misunderstanding? If the undercall didn't cause action from players behind, then allowing him to take his bet back would seem fair.
They essentially have taken the position that it is the players responsibility to pay attention andknow what is going on and what the action is to them. So ifyou miss a raise, its on you
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:03 AM   #14
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Since there are 'interests' in a tournament that go beyond each table the TDA rules have trended to be a bit tighter and more uniformly enforced. They meet every two years (this year) and review if the rule set needs to be adjusted to the changing poker landscape.

There was an interesting thread a few weeks back about OOT action. IMO why should an OOT action possibly get off the hook 'more often' as opposed to a Player making an error when action is actually on them? I posted that these rules should be combined in a fashion that allows for a more uniform enforcement ... basically stating that if you put chips in the middle, they stay in the middle unless action 'truly' changes. (And we could even consider getting rid of that as well.)

One thing to also remember ... Robert's Rules is no longer being revised as of 2017? I read somewhere that Bob Ciaffone was no longer interested in putting the effort into them. I firmly believe that they 'could' be some differences between cash and tournament rules, but I also agree constructing one set of 'world wide' rules is more constructive for poker in general. (You walk into a poker room and if they say TDA with these exceptions then you can comfortably sit down and play, hopefully)

I really wish I could at least sit in on the 2019 TDA discussions during the WSOP this year to get the feel for how those meetings go. GL
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:42 PM   #15
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

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Originally Posted by Joshfan View Post
Floor ended up ruling that if player2 didn't want to call the full all in, he had to lose the 11k he bet.
Standard ruling in this spot. I would do the exact same.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:06 PM   #16
Black Aces 518
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Ruling is fine if the right # of chips is in the pot from the bettor, and/or the dealer has announced the correct action. Otherwise people get punished by mumblers and unclear action.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:23 PM   #17
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilGil View Post
Why does TDA not follow gross misunderstanding? If the undercall didn't cause action from players behind, then allowing him to take his bet back would seem fair.
Poker is a game of observation. It is important to pay attention, and to not obscure one's sense's, with headphones, for example.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:48 AM   #18
DrBadBeat
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Re: Ruling question - player misses a raise in tournament

Think the ruling is fine given the situation.
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