Interesting spot from tonight.

It’s heads up on the flop. Player A goes all in. Player B asks for a count and dealer says $161. Player B drops $61 in chips across the line without saying anything. Player A sees the calling chips and immediately turns his hand over. Player B sees Player A’s cards, then says he misheard the dealer and thought it was $61 and not $161 and mucks his hand. Dealer says Player B surrendered his $61 bet and pushed the pot (+$61 rather than $161 from Player B) to Player A. Ruling? How should this have been handled?

Player A should have perhaps waited for the dealer to confirm a call, but if Player B had tossed in (e.g.) one red chip I don’t think this would hold up (I don’t think he could get away with just surrendering $5). Also, Player B has been known to do this kind of stuff before, eg, saying “all out” then folding after a few seconds.

Yea wait to table your hands and confirm, if you're that excited to show AA.player A. Player B, playing dumb or truly misheard, then side of caution give warning. Too many times people afraid to speak. Ask, confirm amount then proceed. Say it out loud, call! Then you can figure out if you shorted the pit or whatever. Could be possible angle if player B has a history of angling...What's the rush?

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yeah always wait, it's boring and sucks

and yes, you got angled

Player B pays the full 161 or is banned for life from the establishment.

Even if dealer miscounted, as long as player B was aware player A was all-in his call can still be treated as binding for the full amount.

And since he asked for a count, he was aware player a was all-in. Player b's claim may not be credible, if the 161 chips were visible, as there is a big difference between 61 and 161.

Some players might get the benefit of the doubt here, but if he is known angle-shooter he does not.

Did player A push all of his chips forward?

Did the dealer count them in the middle of the table?

If yes, B owes the $ and takes at least a day off if first offense. If a regular angle shooter, I'm banning him.

Standard rules (it's possible that room has different ones) are clear on this - even if the dealer had said $61, the player would still owe $161. In many cases the floor wouldn't have been able to force him to put the extra hundred in, but would have essentially given him the choice of pay the $100 or be kicked out at least for the day.

If B is the scumbag you describe he probably would have just walked out rather than pay. I've had it happen to me.

Were the chips counted by the dealer himself? Were the chips a part of the pot already? Did the dealer break them down? Was there an all in button?

These are the questions I would ask as a floorperson to make it clear that just the dealer saying “161” wasn’t the only clue as to how much the all in was.

The only situation where I could see the ruling the dealer made being reasonable is if the person going all in literally put 61 dollars in chips out in front of him with his hand hiding a black chip and an all in button out in front of him. Otherwise it’s the player’s responsibility to know how much an all-in is, regardless even of what the dealer says the all-in is.

As far as the player’s mistake of turning his hand over too quickly, once a player puts chips in the pot it’s hard to see that as a “mistake.” Not turning the hand over quickly is more of a precaution than a mistake. A lesson that people learn after playing the game long enough is that unless the chips are in the pot or you have enough experience with someone to know they are an honest person, it’s a good idea to confirm all action with the dealer.

Yeah, A put all of his chips in, dealer threw in the all in card, and the dealer counted the chips out.

Lesson learned though on being more careful I guess. I fast roll my hands when called all of the time and have never had a problem but will be more careful in the future.

I was player A obviously and I didn’t make a big stink about it because I think it might have been -EV for him to surrender his hand. He was getting almost 5:1 to put in his last $100 and (while I didn’t see his cards) almost any reasonable hand he could have had would have had at least 17% equity against me for a call to be profitable for him. So I didn’t call the floor over. But I was kicking myself afterwards because he mucked his hand so it’s not like we could have run out the turn and river anyway.

Probably 90% of angles can be avoided/defeated by simply eliminating "insta-" from your live poker routine. Don't instacall, instashow, instamuck, etc. just pause a few seconds to give the dealer the time to verify/clarify the action pending. I see it over and over again. A player wants to instantly act or react to his personal assessment of a rule or action rather than wait for the dealer. Live poker is a slow game at best. Quit trying to save a few seconds in the spots where pausing will protect you from a variety of errors.

The flip side of this is all of the times that I ask how much a player bet after him saying "all in" or even when the all-in button is placed in front of or near the stack of chips that had been moved forward - when I have the nuts.

I get reemed out every time for trying to protect my hand/action.

Its better than this though.

Even if Hero waits it isn't clear that anything else is going to happen. Short of asking for all chips to be moved forward its a tough situation. And in real life I have never seen a player or dealer ask for all chips to be moved forward before continuing.

It could have been a lot worse. If Hero doesn't turn his hand over, then the Angler gets to see the turn and river and then see if he wins or not before only putting in $61.

The part I love is that he was getting the right price to call and still folded.

Unfortunately this can be room dependent based on the gaming rules for the facility .. and more importantly how they are enforced.

The Floor first has to deal with the hand in progress and apply the gaming rules .. which may not require the Player to put anymore chips forward. Once the hand is over it's up to the Floor/facility to determine if they want 'this kind' of Player in 'their house'. It's actually a touchy spot as they can't kick the Player out for violating the rules, since he didn't. But they do have the freedom to ask anyone to leave without cause for the most part.

Although it's very difficult to have someone drawing dead OTF, at least you did get something when the Player surrendered the holding and you avoided Showdown.

We all know how poker games go and I feel you pretty much know that you need to protect your own rights to the pot. Some Dealers/rooms have a lower standard for protocols since spots like this don't come up very often.

The obvious is to make sure the pot is right before you show your cards or at least make sure that you and the Dealer agree with what action has happened. GL

I think there’s one point that makes most of the rest of the discussion moot:
Unless there’s a specific house rule saying otherwise, it does not matter if the dealer said $61 or $161 or $261.

The bet is all-in and the dealer counting the stack is a courtesy. Player has the option to call the all-in bet or forfeit his chips and deal with the consequences.

If the dealer miscounted or misspoke shouldn’t matter. That’s a different issue that can be addressed with the floor to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

The reason I advocate so strongly about waiting is bc you dont want to be in a situation where the floor has to make a decision when facing ambiguous circumstances. For example, if I announce an all n amount of 161, and the player silently puts out 61, that is very unusual.It is not a verbal call; it is not a call by putti g the entire amount forward; and its not a ne chip call. So red flags should be going off. Prior to announcing call and showdown, I would clarify the amount of the all In and clarify the players action. But when the bettor turns over his cards he precludes me from doing that.

So then you get into the realm of rules interpretations. Tda says it doesmt matter what dealer announced, its a call of full amount. RROP allows for gross misunderstanding. Some places allow forfeiture of amount pushed forward; others make you co plete the bet. But all of that could have been avoided by just giving the dealer the chance to clarify an unclear action. RROP also states that it is the responsibility of the bettor to ensure the correct amount is called prior to exposing his cards. So if the dealer didnt sayanything, OP should have questioned why he put out 61 beforehe turned over his cards.

Yeah, if I had noticed it was exactly $61 it would have set off alarm bells. But to me it looked like a handful of chips which is also (for better or worse) a common way of calling an all in bet.

Unless OP is required to turn over his cards (i.e., it is a tournament) waiting can have huge consequences. And if it is a tournament then the Dealer should have said "please turn your cards over" and then you can wait to make sure the other player is going to turn his cards over and doesn't protest. Though the assumption would be that he called. If you do wait for the dealer to ask for cards to be turned over at least it is another argument in favor of having the Floor rule it was a call regardless of bet size because the angler didn't protest.

If the Dealer just continues to deal in a cash game after Hero "waits" then the angler gets to see the Turn and River and decide to say nothing if he wins the hand. This is infinitely worse than what actually happened. Because the ruling will go the same way if the angler loses the hand and protests saying he only called $61.

If that situation could even qualify as gross misunderstanding might be room dependent.

I vaguely remember a tournament situation where the floor ruled that gross misunderstanding couldn't apply because "all-in" was a valid bet in No Limit Hold'em and the use of an all-in button made sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding about that. In other words, to qualify as gross misunderstanding, the player would have to make a point that he didn't understand the bet was all-in.

This is the ruling Dario whined about for ages at the wsop main event. Based on that you gotta call it all, but those are tourney rules.

In this situation dealer should ALWAYS call the floor, even if you were ready to accept the $61.

In some rooms an under call is just that. One red chip or 61 chips doesn’t matter. As long as there is no verbal call, only the chips put in are at risk. Yes an angle but as we know an angle is within the rules technically.

Even if villain did verbalize call, many and maybe most rooms cannot force V to put chips not the pot though they can penalize V. To force V to give more chips or to take chips from V is considered theft some place. But so are V actions in some other places.

Yes you can ask dealer to make the pot right. I have. Lazy or bad dealers may grump but they will do it. I don’t always do it but if my radar goes off I will. Usually would only do this if there is history with this particular villain.

The best way to avoid this is for rooms to get rid of the practice of one chip all ins and one chip calls. In this case, with nothing verbalized, op reflex would have been wait instead of fast roll

I really get tired of the exceptions in poker ruining it for the rest of us. If there’s an all in button out, there should be absolutely no exception that lets a player that calls an all in pay less than all in. &in good rooms there isn’t

But Rooms that allow or tolerate under calls would claim the player never called making you point moot. I agree such are not good rooms but some would say rooms that endorse, tolerate, or allow one chip all in or call also have issues. Some might say those rooms are not good either.

Sure, but if you put in one chip and don’t call the all in you’re a scumbag and should probably go on an FBI watch list.

Also the one chip call and an undercall with a stack are different situations imo. And once the all in button is out there, I’ve only seen a very rare, once a year situation where the person trying to weasel their way out of paying actually didn’t know what the all in was.

I am honestly confused how this could be ruled anything but a call, or how the hero made a mistake. The player made an action that was unequivocally a call, and then claimed afterwards he did not realize the size of the bet and only wanted to be on the hook for what he claims he thought the bet was. That's allowed? We are allowed to freeroll a portion of the call by just claiming we didn't know how big the bet was?

Would it make a difference if he said 'call' or tossed in a single chip?

How is this anything but '$161 or a rack'?

This is a horrible angle shot. I'm not buying for a second that the villain couldn't tell the difference between $61 in chips and $161, especially with his reputation.

FWIW, the misunderstanding rule is for gross misunderstandings. Putting nearly have what you owe is not a gross misunderstanding. TBH, you should name to room so others can be aware of their poor decision making.

RROP states that as a rule of thumb, if a player puts 80% of the correct amount in the pot it shouldnt be considered gross misunderstanding. In this case he only put in about 37% of the correct amount. Im not saying he wasnt angling, but the amount is certainly small enough compared to the correct amount to fall under the gross misunderstanding rule.