1. if you're not just a pure recreational player your wanting him to fold is ******ed
2. no collusion happened from what I've read
3. to MTP how could they have possibly been colluding THAT HAND? I'm not saying anything about whether they were colluding other times but why would it be colluding for one partner to get the other one to fold a flush draw when they were HU in the pot? Just makes no sense.

No, not 'bitter 8 seat'. Believe what you want.

I'm not here to discuss why it was or was not collusion. The floor already made their ruling. And they ruled what they did is not allowed at Borgata.

I commented because the guy lied in his story several times and he should be called out on it, no?

I'm curious to see where this leads, but I think we should at least leave open the possibility that these were two separate incidents. I know we all feel our experiences are unique, but the same crap happens on every poker table every day.

I don't think any crime was committed. Let's not forget, instead of turning over a set, you could have showed him a pure bluff.

But I did show bottom set. How often do you hear chatter between two heads up players? "If I fold will you show?" "Do you want the action?" Lets not forget the classic "You call its all over baby"

Whole chapters in the literature have been written about talking and how to react to being talked to. This is nothing new, nothing that doesn't occur every day.

I'll have an extensive response to MEET THE PRESS later today.

I understand why you may leave the possibility open but I promise you they are not. The player already confirmed the seat #s and the day and the location of the table. See below.

Regardless...... I wrote what I wrote just to try to keep this on honest conversation.....which it definately was not. If he says otherwise now you know it is not. And if you choose not to believe me that's your guys decision. I don't think I can offer up any more proof that I was there as it happened.
Good luck.

Well, you never mentioned the day in your first post, so he did not "confirm" the day. And "by the cage" vs "not far from the cage" isn't an exact match.

Just wondering. Long time lurker who decided to register just to call someone a liar?

If he really did lie, then why don't you tell us what really happened? So far, his story makes sense and yours does not.

I'm not so sure you aren't seat 8, but that doesn't really matter. As a point of interest for those following this thread, seat 8 and I had a dispute a few hours earlier that the floor settled in my favor. Seat 8 was quite unhappy with that decision but that could be another discussion on another day.

What I would like to know is what I "flat out lied" about. I may have been mistaken when I said seat 1 was Asian, but what does that matter? I also said he was a young kid and by my measure, anyone under 40 is a young kid. And by the way, he was talking to some other people. Again, what bearing does this have to this discussion? Is this flat out lying? The point I was trying to make is that we were complete strangers. I never met him before and have no recollection of playing with him before.

The woman behind me was my wife, impatiently waiting for me to leave. This was definitely going to be my last hand. I remember looking down at pocket 9's and thinking Christ I don't want anything playable now, I'm leaving. I (and probably most other players) have lost big on that "last" hand. I couldn't fold pocket 9's when it was limped to me, so I tossed in the nickel and player 1 limped. Trust me- I really didn't want to get involved in a big hand now. I just wanted to go home a winner for this session.

When I hit bottom set I had to play, so I bet 20 into a pot of around 20. Then seat 1 raises to 60, seat 8 folds (after investing all of $5 in this pot) and the action is to me. Then I pushed assuming seat 1 would fold if he had AX. When he started to give thought to calling, I put him on a diamond draw. Then I told him, I am ahead, fold and I'll show you etc., etc. I'll again reiterate, I didn't want an all in confrontation, even though I was truly ahead.

Poker Stove
me 99 74.5%
seat 1 2 diamonds 25.5%

I'm aware I was giving up alot of equity but as I've stated over and over again in this thread, I simply wanted to go home a winner. That was my last hand. I was either racking up or intending to rack up. I think my wife had gotten me a few racks but in any event, that was my last hand.

As far as collusion, that is truly laughable. Did we collude to pick up seat 8's $5 limp? Seat 1 was at the table for only a short time prior to this. I don't recall even being in a hand with him. You can refer to posts in this thread by DEALER-GUY, WEBHAPPY and ZACHVAC for discussion of how ridiculous any accusation of collussion are in this case.

MEET THE PRESS-DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER INSTANCES SUPPORTING COLLUSSION BETWEEN SEAT 1 AND ME OR DO YOU THINK WE PLANNED THIS EARTH SHATTERING HEIST FOR $5?


Here is an interesting aside. I called the poker room today to ask what the formal policy is on talking to a heads up opponent. The answer is this: It is not against the rules but it is discouraged because one of the players in the hand can feel he is being "needled." I'm pretty sure if you ask seat 1 if he was being needled after being persuaded to fold when he was a 3 to1 dog his response to me would be thank you, thank you, thank you.

As far as seat 8 he folded his hand due to seat 1's $60 raise before the push and my talking to seat 1. He was already out of the pot after a $5 limp.

So MEET THE PRESS please tell me what "The number of lies" I told in my original post were?

Mistaken?! Give me a break. LoL. You stared right at him for 2 minutes while you spoke with him. You lied when you said that he was asian. And That his asian friends were watching. There were no friends. You made your original point that they were all asian to further distance yourself from this player in an effort to further demonstrate that the likelyhood that you guys were colluding was somehow even less because of this. Why did you make this fact up??

You also embelished the story by saying you were racked up- you were not.

I'm glad you had a conversation with "The borgata" today. The ruling I was around for by the shift manager that is there whenever I am at Borgata said you should not do that. The reason he gave was because of collusion or the appearance thereof. If you don't like it go take it up with shift manager again then. See if you can change his mind.

The only reason I chimed in here was to straighten out the lies that were being told. Otherwise you guys would be believing this guy word for word. Maybe you still are. I don't know. If he is lying about some details to make his story sound better, who know what else he is lying about. I was actually just trying to be helpful. It's obvious I was there...I knew the set, seats, table location...all before the player even mentioned them.

And I'll say it again...I am not seat 8 though I have seen him before. Regardless, you did what you did and the floor ruled.

Whatever....I'm done. Only I know who the player is for now so what does it matter anyway,right? Good luck to the rest of you.

Things I learned in this thread:

al_capone_Junior is apparently a big wet blanket at the table

meet_the_Press seems to be intent on discrediting elliot over nitpicks to the story that are actually fairly irrelevant.

elliot does not like money

... Good thread!

Not knowing either poster from Adam, I must say that MTP does not present a very strong case. It's all about the presentation. He doesn't strike me as someone interested in helping work out the true situation.

Far from it. I'm usually quite chatty and friendly. Difference is I don't watch TV poker and don't waste other people's time with ridiculous TV bullcrap inspired pointless banter. When it's my turn to act, I play cards in a timely fashion.

Sorry to bump an old thread but i found this by searching my issue here at the MGM National harbor.

They do not allow talk ever even if heads up.

In a tournament? Or cash games? Pretty standard if tournament.

This was in a cash game where the two players still in a hand are unable to talk to each other. They enforce this rule the same in tournaments as well.

Probably best not to table talk or show hands heads up UNLESS you are sure that the room and the regs have no trouble with it. This kind of behavior is fairly common in home games where most folks know each other and stakes can be much lower. I would normally avoid it at casinos I frequent.

Ive done that before. Planning to leave soon, ran $200 up to $1000 playing 1-2 at a table against a very good LAG who had me covered. I get kings raise to like $15 he 3-bets to $60 I call. Flop KT9. I bet $60 he raises to $150 I just shove for like $750 more and tell him you can just fold I'm tired of battling against you all night, I've got it.

He tanked and called with TT. I held on. I was like, I told you I had it. He was a good sport about it.

Wondered how this thread got to be so long ....

Room dependent for talking, very few rooms allow showing of cards and most of the ones that did changed back to no show ... now to get the Dealer to enforce a 'slip' or two is totally different.

As far as the OP .. You pick the result you want ...
1) OP gets his fold ... 'calling chips' stay on the table, OP comes back rolled the next day.
2) OP gets his call and wins ... chips leave for the day, OP comes back extra rolled the next day.
3) OP gets his call and loses ... chips stay on the table with presumed action Player, OP comes back tomorrow and wont stop talking about the hand
4) OP gets his fold and shows a bluff ... 'calling chips' stay on the table and presumed action Player is now tilted and blows off 3 buy-ins, OP comes back tomorrow and wont stop talking about the hand.

You pick .. GL

I don't see anything wrong or unethical about indicating to your opponent that you have a big hand if you want to lock up a win and leave. Most casinos allow you to talk to your opponent about the hand if it is heads up, but if the casino in question prohibits it then you should refrain from doing so.

With this logic, fold pre

I was always wondering why would anyone prohibit talking at poker table in heads up pots. When I was a beginner I thought that's what this game is about. Inducing tells, mysterious reads, provocations, mind games etc. Now it's just counting cards and chips which is boring.

Because almost every person that engages in "speech play" is an annoying ******* that nobody enjoys playing with. It may gain you an advantage in a single hand but it is more likely to kill action/scare off soft opponents. If you're playing just to swing your big dick it might be a successful strategy I guess?

The old 'you can never have too much of a good thing' tends to apply here. Yes, talking is/was part of poker. But as CMoneymaker started the poker craze, JGold started the talking craze during his WSOP ME win ... and Players really started to take things too far.

It was slowing the game down and it also was perceived that 'professionals' (or anyone who has reading skills) would have an 'unfair' advantage at the table. It was more of an issue during tournaments where the outcome of each hand has a residual effect on the rest of the field. Whereas in a cash game the 'damage' is somewhat limited to only those who are at the table.

Poker management didn't want amateurs feeling overwhelmed at the table .. and thus possibly hurting entries. In lieu of really over-doing it, things have loosened up a bit and IMO tournament poker is 'more fun' again. GL

I'm glad you used quotation marks with the word "unfair". I see your point. On the other hand some amateurs might think that they suck at math but they are good at mouthing so they will have a shot.
The only real argument is that it slows down the game, agreed. In this case I think it would balance itself out eventually anyway. No one wants to be like Kassouf, right?