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Old 06-29-2010, 11:36 PM   #1
The Palimax
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Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

I'm prepping an "everything we know so far" report on IWTSTH, consolidating the information that I've gathered so far, but I'm looking for some more data.

In addition to still trying to gather a video of IWTSTH gone wrong (one that doesn't involve Esfandiari and Laak), I'm looking for a quick yes/no/conditional listing of how IWTSTH is applied in casinos in your regions. I don't need anything special, just:
  • Casino on the Bay, Anytown USA, allowed.
  • Casino du Swanky, Fancytown USA, not allowed under any circimstance.
  • Casino del Dinero, Nowhere MEX, requires suspected collusion and a call to the floor.
I'd like to get at least the "major" Strip/Downtown Las Vegas poker rooms, the LA rooms and the AC rooms listed.

I know I can only ask, but if a moderator can help keep discussion out of this thread and in any of the others, I'd be greatly appreciative. So, if you reply, please, please, I ask: Just list your casino and a short description of how the rule is applied in your room.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:47 AM   #2
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Grand Lisboa Casino Macau
Requires suspected collusion, floor staff only may inspect the hand/s in question
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:51 AM   #3
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

It's allowed in every room I frequent (commerce, bike, hollywood park, hustler, normandie, hawaiian gardens, san manuel), and at least at hustler and hollywood park, it can be taken away if repeatedly invoked. If the winner of the hand invokes it, the hand is live.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:15 AM   #4
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

No longer allowed at Foxwoods (unless tourney and collusion is accused, then the tourney floor will examine hands separately and discipline accordingly)

Allowed at all Atlantic City Casino's, but if it is overly abused floor will take into consideration, and if collusion is suspected floor will observe tables and discipline accordingly.

Usually not allowed at Underground Manhattan Clubs, unfortunately one has to protect themselves against collusion, unless you want to bring it up privately with the organizer, and this will sometimes have a positive, but usually a negative response....
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:48 AM   #5
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Disallowed without presenting evidence of collusion in: Wynn, Mirage, Harrah's.
I won't try to list where it's allowed in Vegas.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:01 AM   #6
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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Originally Posted by Shagadelic View Post
Allowed at all Atlantic City Casino's, but if it is overly abused floor will take into consideration, and if collusion is suspected floor will observe tables and discipline accordingly.
At lease two rooms in AC put a twist on IWTSTH...

Bally's permits only players involved at showdown to request to see a hand.

At Showboat any player dealt into a hand can make the request. If a player involved at showdown invokes IWTSTH the hand that is turned over hand is not killed, it is live.
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:35 PM   #7
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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Disallowed without presenting evidence of collusion in: Wynn, Mirage, Harrah's.
I won't try to list where it's allowed in Vegas.
Bav,

Are you suggesting that except where noted that it's generally allowed? [I'm not needling, I'm just trying to get a grip on it.] Should I just be trying to gather a list of the places in Vegas where there's a restriction or ban on it?

Do the other Harrah's properties in Vegas mirror the Harrah's proper rule? I know my local tribal Harrah's honors IWTSTH (although they honestly have a consistency problem with rules there).

My eventual follow-up question for Vegas is: What are the poker rooms of note on the Strip, Downtown and in the outlying areas? [I know, big list.]
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:20 PM   #8
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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Bav,

Are you suggesting that except where noted that it's generally allowed? [I'm not needling, I'm just trying to get a grip on it.] Should I just be trying to gather a list of the places in Vegas where there's a restriction or ban on it?

Do the other Harrah's properties in Vegas mirror the Harrah's proper rule? I know my local tribal Harrah's honors IWTSTH (although they honestly have a consistency problem with rules there).

My eventual follow-up question for Vegas is: What are the poker rooms of note on the Strip, Downtown and in the outlying areas? [I know, big list.]
I'm implying that allowing IWTSTH is the norm, but I can't speak for all ~57 poker rooms in Vegas. I have not put in very many hours in the majority of them. So I can't speak from experience as to what Circus Circus or Riviera do. The times I see it refused (Wynn, Harrah's, Mirage) stand out because they are so unusual. I think I can safely say I have not seen IWTSTH refused anywhere else, but that's not the same thing as saying they won't refuse it anywhere else.

IP, Bally's, PHo, etc allow IWTSTH--it's just Harrah's, far as I know, that doesn't allow it. But I have never played at Bill's or O'Shea's and put in little time at Flamingo or Caesars (the last couple years) so I wouldn't really know fersure what they do.

AVP has a nice list of Vegas poker rooms, sorted by "big", "strip", "downtown", and "off-strip".
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:29 PM   #9
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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<snip>
Thanks. I've got league poker tonight, then I'll start documenting some of this.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:34 PM   #10
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

You probably know these ones already Pali, but for onlookers I'll list them.

Phoenix, AZ

Harrah's Ak-Chin: IWTSTH may be requested by any player dealt in at the start of the hand. (This is also the only place I have ever in my life seen IWTSTH requested because of suspected collusion, AND IT ACTUALLY CAUGHT COLLUSION.)

Gila River Wild Horse Pass: IWTSTH may be requested by any player with a live hand at showdown.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:08 PM   #11
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas.

Cash games: only a player who reaches showdown can ask to see another player's hand that reaches showdown.

Tournaments: any player at the table can ask to see a hand that reaches showdown.
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Old 07-04-2010, 03:36 PM   #12
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Inn of the Mountain Gods - New Mexico

All games: any player at the table can ask to see a hand that reaches showdown.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:04 PM   #13
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Winstar, Riverwind, Choctaw in Oklahoma: Allowed, but not as many times as you want. One and done.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:53 PM   #14
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

All San Diego casinos allow it for anyone dealt in. It's typical to just ask the dealer "All hands please dealer." He puts a hand over the muck and flips them all up.
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:02 PM   #15
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Isle Pompano Pompano Beach Florida.

Allowed but if we suspect it's being used for the needle, we'll take the privelidge away.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:22 PM   #16
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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Isle Pompano Pompano Beach Florida.

Allowed but if we suspect it's being used for the needle, we'll take the privelidge away.
Mike, I thought you were pretty much going to do away with IWTSTH from another thread.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:07 PM   #17
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Pensacola Greyhound Track Poker Room, FL, allowed.
Ebro greyhound Park Poker Room, FL, allowed.
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Old 07-17-2010, 09:49 PM   #18
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

UPDATED:

Help me fill out THIS SPREADSHEET!

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Old 07-18-2010, 08:26 AM   #19
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

I think your definitions should be adjusted. The difference between requiring someone make a defensible charge of cheating to invoke IWTSTH vs just holding cards at showdown is quite different. In the latter case, someone (or multiple someones) can simply say "IWTSTH" and that's that--easy. In the former case, it's highly unlikely to happen. I'd say being willing to state out loud at the table "I think this guy is cheating and here's why I think so" is a pretty extraordinary measure.

So I'd call the "make a charge of collusion" rooms "NO", not "RES". It amounts to "NO"--I've never seen someone try to make an argument that a player is cheating.
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:10 AM   #20
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Dollar King Charity Poker Room, Temperance MI

Any player dealt into the hand is allowed to ask.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:25 PM   #21
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

We need to start the Canadian section (maybe break the Canada section down into Provinces?)

(Ontario) Brantford Charity Casino, IWTSTH is allowed with no restrictions
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Old 07-18-2010, 02:41 PM   #22
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by bav View Post
I think your definitions should be adjusted. The difference between requiring someone make a defensible charge of cheating to invoke IWTSTH vs just holding cards at showdown is quite different. In the latter case, someone (or multiple someones) can simply say "IWTSTH" and that's that--easy. In the former case, it's highly unlikely to happen. I'd say being willing to state out loud at the table "I think this guy is cheating and here's why I think so" is a pretty extraordinary measure.

So I'd call the "make a charge of collusion" rooms "NO", not "RES". It amounts to "NO"--I've never seen someone try to make an argument that a player is cheating.
There aren't any rooms that meet that definition yet, I believe. It's just the legend that needs updated.

I've been fairly liberal in applying yellow markers to those with modest restrictions.

"Specific charge of collusion" might need to go to RED, but I had mostly intended yellow to be the broad area that denoted some sort of restriction that would, regardless, let you see the cards if you say the right thing. ...where RED meant that unless the room caught fire, you weren't seeing them.

Last edited by The Palimax; 07-18-2010 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 07-18-2010, 10:10 PM   #23
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

Quote:
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So I'd call the "make a charge of collusion" rooms "NO", not "RES". It amounts to "NO"--I've never seen someone try to make an argument that a player is cheating.
I changed the description of (RES)tricted to be less, uh, restrictive. No casino yet has been reported as requiring a specific charge of collusion yet, however. [Or if there is one, I didn't catch it. ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatsShadow View Post
Dollar King Charity Poker Room, Temperance MI

Any player dealt into the hand is allowed to ask.
Added Michigan, added Dollar King.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zunni74 View Post
We need to start the Canadian section (maybe break the Canada section down into Provinces?)

(Ontario) Brantford Charity Casino, IWTSTH is allowed with no restrictions
Reorganized the list to Vegas, The US (minus Vegas), and International
Added Canada/Ontario and Brantford Charity.

LAS VEGAS POKER ROOM REGULARS: Please provide data. This will eventually be part of a larger document.
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Old 07-18-2010, 10:35 PM   #24
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
I changed the description of (RES)tricted to be less, uh, restrictive. No casino yet has been reported as requiring a specific charge of collusion yet, however. [Or if there is one, I didn't catch it. ]
meep?
Quote:
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Disallowed without presenting evidence of collusion in: Wynn, Mirage, Harrah's.
Last time I saw it applied was at Mirage. Dealer says "we don't allow that" but the player INSISTED. Floor was called who came over and explained they only allow it if cheating is suspected and point-blank asked "are you accusing this gentleman of cheating?"
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Old 07-18-2010, 11:44 PM   #25
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Re: Regional Information Request, RE: IWTSTH

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meep?

Last time I saw it applied was at Mirage. Dealer says "we don't allow that" but the player INSISTED. Floor was called who came over and explained they only allow it if cheating is suspected and point-blank asked "are you accusing this gentleman of cheating?"
Yeah, I'll move those to NO and update the "NO" legend. Too much sun in Arizona this time of year to think clearly.

I don't want to make more categories or anything. This isn't intended to be a comprehensive resource of the subtleties, etc.

Spreadsheet updated and thanks for the bump.
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