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Old 11-12-2017, 08:51 AM   #1
6bet me
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"What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

So many times in live games, especially PLO, I get into spots where I have a hand which plays really well in HU pots but really awful in multiway pots (eg. AA72r).

So I might be $1k effective against V2 and V3, but only ~$100 effective against V1. There has been a raise to $15 and 2 callers and I look down at AA72r and have to decide how much to raise to. What I would hate to do is pot here, face a ~$100 jam, get 2 callers, it comes back to me and find out that I have to flat the $100 and play a $400 locked pot with $900 behind and 2 active players. This is just an awful spot to be in with raggy Aces.

So obviously, I want to size my bet such that I can 5bet when V1 jams his stack in and it gets back to me. In this scenario, I would choose to raise to $55 to make this happen. But here is the problem: imagine V1 has his chips stacked in a funny way and I can only estimate that he's somewhere between $80-$120 deep, but I don't know the exact amount. The dealer refuses to tell me the exact amount.

Is there a way I can somehow phrase a question as to the effect of "will you let me come over the top if I raise to $55 and V1 jams?" Are dealers required to answer this question, or at least a similar question?
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:16 AM   #2
dinesh
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

In most rooms the answer should probably be no. You aren't entitled to an exact count of a player's unbet stack. (I think the rule is a bad one, but it is the rule in most rooms.)

And while your question tries to phrase itself as a rules question, it's not. I would probably answer it simply by going out of my way to answer the rule part of it without answering your actual question. Maybe by using made up numbers. "Say you bet 50. Then if he went all in for 99, you couldn't re-raise, but if he went all in for 100, you could."

Or alternately, "If player had $110 or more and went all in, then yes. Otherwise no."
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:30 AM   #3
AngusThermopyle
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Most places, not entitled to a count. And dealers shouldn't answer in such a way as to give you a count.

a. Just raise to $35
b. Learn to estimate/count small stacks better.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:07 PM   #4
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

If the chips aren't properly stacked you can request the player properly stack his chips (that doesn't necessarily mean in the increments you like).

Personally I think you should be entitled to a count of the players chips ... but that is not the rule in most places....
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Old 11-12-2017, 02:47 PM   #5
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Most places, not entitled to a count. And dealers shouldn't answer in such a way as to give you a count.

a. Just raise to $35
b. Learn to estimate/count small stacks better.
This.

Disagree with the posts that think this should be allowed. It would slow the game way down, and if you allow it, I don't see why you shouldn't also allow players to get an exact count of the pot.
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Old 11-12-2017, 03:22 PM   #6
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Yeah working with this rule is (what I consider to be a basic) part of the skill of the game. If the stack is question is "somewhere between $80-$120 deep" and you want to be able to re-pop, then you're not going to risk sizing your bet for the worst case of $80, right? Then at your level of confidence, why would you size your bet for $81 or $90 or $105? Don't overthink it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
a. Just raise to $35
b. Learn to estimate/count small stacks better.
btw if your example is realistic, then you should concentrate on (b) for your next many sessions. An $80 and $120 stack should not look at all similar.
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:12 PM   #7
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

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Originally Posted by Rawlz517 View Post
Disagree with the posts that think this should be allowed. It would slow the game way down, and if you allow it, I don't see why you shouldn't also allow players to get an exact count of the pot.
I agree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
Yeah working with this rule is (what I consider to be a basic) part of the skill of the game. If the stack is question is "somewhere between $80-$120 deep" and you want to be able to re-pop, then you're not going to risk sizing your bet for the worst case of $80, right? Then at your level of confidence, why would you size your bet for $81 or $90 or $105? Don't overthink it
Because if his stack is $120 instead of $80 band hero makes it only $45, he might not face a shove/fold spot but opt for a call. Hero would like to avoid this if his plan is to reraise.

But you should be able to get a way closer estimate of the other players chips by simply trying to count them. Chip by chip if necessary. If you can't do that, that's something to work on.
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:20 PM   #8
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

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Originally Posted by Rawlz517 View Post
This.

Disagree with the posts that think this should be allowed. It would slow the game way down, and if you allow it, I don't see why you shouldn't also allow players to get an exact count of the pot.
The difference between a count of a players stack and a count of the pot is that any player who was merely paying attention to the action could calculate the pot size. This is not true of a players stack.

It is notable that the OP in fact would have been entitled to a count of the pot. (as it appears he was playing PLO)
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:40 PM   #9
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Raising to $35 sucks because:

1) Imagine V1 was the last caller. If you make it $35, V2 and V3 calls, then V1 jams $100, now the most you can repot to is $370, which still leaves $630 behind. On the other hand, if we made it $55 preflop, now we can pot to $410 and leave only $590 behind.

In the latter scenario, we have a much easier decision on how to play postflop (just jam 100% of flops, since the SPR will never be higher than 0.6), whereas in the former scenario, we could find ourselves in a really tough spot (eg. 789 monotone flop with 0.72 SPR). So the sizing actually makes a big difference here, due to pot geometry, and could cause us to misplay postflop and change the entire outcome of the hand.

And if we're playing NLHE, then it's the difference between squeezing $70 worth of dead money (2 x $35) vs squeezing $110 worth of dead money (2 x $55), which has a big difference upon your win rate.

2) There's a good chance that V1 will flat $20 more instead of jamming $100 in, like he would if you made it $55.

Also, if the $80-$120 example is too simple for you, then try a $400-$600 example when villain has several uneven stacks of $5 red chips that add up to a total of $500.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:57 PM   #10
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

I'm sure there is a world where the difference in 0.6 spr and 0.7 spr matters, but that world is not LLS PLO.

(In a gto theory verse, I can see where your question has merit. But it seems like you're imagining:
1. there being some exact decision point where V will flat vs shove;
2. us being able to pinpoint it;
3. it being in the exact sweet spot for us to reraise.

Seems like a lot to ask.)

Last edited by sw_emigre; 11-12-2017 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:23 PM   #11
albedoa
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Also, if the $80-$120 example is too simple for you, then try a $400-$600 example when villain has several uneven stacks of $5 red chips that add up to a total of $500.
You just...raised the values. It's the same ratio. Any chipstack x is going to look vastly different from 1.5x no matter how they are stacked. If you don't think so, then you need to take Angus's post to heart. The examples are not too simple for us.

Or post some pictures to demonstrate what kind of formation is confusing you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_emigre View Post
I'm sure there is a world where the difference in 0.6 spr and 0.7 spr matters, but that world is not LLS PLO.
Ya.
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:18 AM   #12
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

FWIW this never works for me. I raise an amount that allows the ss to shove and reopen my raise. Nah. They always flat. I’m like, really dude wtf?

Being facetious. But seems to always happen to me.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #13
answer20
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Re: "What is the betting threshold such that I can come over the top if V1 jams?"

Exact spot popped up last night in RxR game. BB didn't pay attention to a short-stacked tilting UTG player and raised $5 too much to 5-bet shove. Thus he saw a Flop with 3 other players and was OOP to boot.

I always pay attention to the shortest stack remaining in the hand in order to leave me the most options. AA72, even 2 suited, isn't 'that' grand of a hand IMO. Go ahead and raise while leaving the door open and see what the Flop brings. You are looking at stacks with an eye on how to shove the Flop when you can also look at the spot with an eye on not being priced into calling into an awful board. GL
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