What I am seeing mainly is rooms with hard betting lines transitioning to the more common forward motion. In the interim, hey still rigidly enforce the betting line, and subjectively enforce obvious pump fakes(the player may get a warning, since previously pump fakes were allowed). They don't enforce someone moving chips in front of their stack or other innocuous movements, but they may warn them.

This is usually the result of local rooms beginning to host circuit or regional events. Yes, it is a bit imprecise to have both, but for a room with a loarge local base, it is hard to overnight switch from one rule to the next.

I figured forward motion was more like "you have to bet something, but not all the chips", where as betting line is whatever makes it over the line is what is bet.

Was told at wsop its cut and release so bringing chips back seemed ok. Was a few years ago. Everyone gets a staging area.

I think there is a distinction in many rooms based on how the chips are moved forward. If a player has a stack in his hand, and his hand moves forward, he can either silently cut out chips and return the rest, or verbally declare an amount prior to completing the cutting out of chips.

But if he has, say, three stacks of chips, and starts to push them all forward at the same time while they remain in contact with the felt, then all those chips are committed at the point. You cant start to slide 3 stacks forward, stop and then continue with just one stack. Or verbalize a one stack bet after starting forward with 3.

The staging area is historically behind your cards. Where that is still the rule the rule becomes forward motion beyond/past your cards.

I would agree that chips brought out in front of a Player's cards will receive a lot more attention from both opponents and Dealers, but there's a difference between compiling a bet and moving chips or stacks forward .. and releasing them.

Definitely rooms that may warn or will just lay the law down regarding any chips brought out in front of the cards. Plenty of variations with Dealers enforcement. Players who pause or stop (sit back or look around) may hear from the Dealer that they need to push the complied chips forward as their bet .. perhaps with a first time warning. GL

In our room there isn't when you are sliding stacks forward. They are considered as touching the felt, unlike when you have a stack in your hand in the air, and then put chips down so whatever size stack you cutout is touching the felt, but the rest have not touched. There is no betting line you have to reach before chips become committed. It's the forward motion, coupled with them being on the felt that commits them. That's the whole reason you have to compile your bet first. Because once you start the stacks forward,its binding.

To allow someone to slide stacks forward, then at some later point take some chips back, negates the whole point of the forward motion rule. They could slide stacks forward as far as they want (since there is no betting line), get a read, then pull some chips off or pull a stack back. That would mean the forward motion was meaningless. So while of course every room can do what they want, I believe the more common interpretation of the forward motion rule is ifyou bring chips forward in your hand, in the air, they are not binding until they are out of your hand and on the felt. But if you compile your chips into a bet, once they start forward they are in play.

I disagree. It’s a much better rule to allow players to cut and release. It doesn’t take away from forward motion at all. Although you will sometimes get people that angle it, bringing in a stack to make a call or betting less than the full stack you bring forward is so common that making people put all the chips in their hand just overly complicates things.

The forward motion’s true utility is preventing pump fakes. Trying to make it so that people have to assemble the exact entirety of the bet has a chilling effect on the speed of the game. It makes betting and raising feel much more robotic and unnatural.

I havent seen anything getting overcomplicated. If a player is making a bet or call with an amount of chips that they fit in their hand, they do that easily by cutting out what they need and returning the rest. If they are calling a multistack bet, they simply say call, then they can slide out whatever they want and take back whatever they want. It's only when a player is betting a multistack bet that it comes into play. The can either say 350 and then slide out whatever they need, able to go back to the stacks if needed or remove as needed.

Its only when a player assembles say 350 in front of him, slides it forward (which triggers the forward motion rule) and then pulls some chips back that is not allowed. It prevents angle shooting. Thats the while point of the forward motion rule. Sliding 3 stacks forward and then being able to pull back two stacks is as much a pump fake as bringing your hand forward and pulling it back.

Since that's been the rule in our room, I havent seen any issues with it at all. It seems pretty clear to everybody. Either verbally declare your bet before sliding a multistack bet forward,or compile your bet and slide it forward. Either action is binding.

What's so terrible about pump faking that we have to devise all these random, not evenly enforced rules to try a prevent it ?

It makes your games hostile to newbies and encourages the worst type of angling. Seems pretty straightforward/obvious to me.

The worst type of angling I've seen involves rules nits. The more varied and complex the rules are across venues the more these guys thrive.

Newbies understand they need to have a poker face when they sit down. At least I did. I learned more later.

Also, cut and release is a version of a pump fake. You literally can't allow that motion and enforce forward motion at the same time.

You can of course ban pump fakes outright. Which is the logical thing to do if that's your intent.

Thank you! I have to agree with you 100% and I've always thought this since the first time I was exposed to this. It's actually infuriating to me. I never complain because I don't know who's responsible for this idiocy, but if I ever find out who invented this combo rule I'll punch them right in the nose.

I'm sure most of this thread that I haven't read will be people retroactively trying to justify it with mental gymnastics, but it doesn't change the utter ridiculousness of having both.

Just read. I knew it. It's a "courtesy line" until you hear dealers and floors saying things like "chips crossed the line" or "cards crossed the line" or "hand can only cross the line once to cut out chips or it's a string" or "any chips in your hand as it crosses the line..." etcetera.