Hello, I'm looking for an answer and explanation on whether the betting can or cannot be reopened preflop here:

1/3. UTG limps. UTG+1 limps. CO raises to 16. BTN 3 bets to 51. BB goes all in for 64. UTG calls. UTG+1 folds. CO goes all in for 450. BTN folds. UTG folds.

Is the CO allowed to iso shove here? Why or why not? Appreciate anyone who can clarify this for me.

Yes. The all in did not reopen as not a full bet so BTN could not iso. But the BTN 3 bet t o 51 does reopen options for CO.

Everyone acting after the BB all in EXCEPT BTN has all options open.

Short answer...Yes CO has the option of raising...but if CO just called Button would not because last raise was not enough to reopen betting.

CO made a raise of 13 to 16. Any action behind them that is a full raise (equal to or greater than 13) reopens action to them. Btn raised it 35 to 51, so action is reopened to CO. BB raised it only 14 to 64, so BB's shove did not reopen action to Btn, but action to CO had already been opened.

Now, when CO shoves to 450, they raised 386, so their raise was a full raise, and reopened action to Btn (though, it doesn't matter, as everyone else in the hand is all-in at this point).

So, to clarify, CO raises, Btn raises, reopening action to CO, BB shoves less than a full raise, which does not reopen action (bu action was already reopened to CO).

If you’re confused, since BBS all in is NOT a raise, pretend he just called. Then the available options for each player should be clear. BTN is the last raiser; everyone else still has the option to raise.

...but BB's all in is a raise.

He's saying to make it easier to understand, just pretend it's a call.

Another player's actions can't take away CO's options. Before BB acted, CO had the ability to raise. Why would the BB's all in take that option away?

Not in the sense you that you mean. The comment you are replying to is distinguishing between "action only" and "action changed", which are often referred to as "action only" and "raise". He is telling you why the distinction is useful here.

BB's raise (or non-raise) is irrelevant in this question. The CO raise and was re-raised by BTN. CO has the right raise based on this action alone. The fact the BB went all-in in between does not matter.

As for the question, was the BB's all-in a legal raise will depend on the house rules. All rooms should say this is not a legal raise raise even going by the half-raise rule which should only be use in limit poker.

Not for nothing, this is a spot that a lot of players, and some dealers, easily get confused in. The look at BB's shove and say 'not a full raise, does not reopen action', which is correct, and forget that button reopened action to CO already. And when you have 6 players all yelling at you, it is easy for a dealer to get stubborn and repeat 'BB did not reopen action' and only allow CO to call.

The best thing to do in this situation is to tell everyone to be quiet for a second (assuming that you have a stake in the hand), then slowly walk through the action, and indicate exactly where action was reopened to CO. But the key is to do it calmly, step by step, and not confrontationally, otherwise the dealer and possibly the floor will double down on the initial ruling just to maintain control of the game.

No doubt, this all makes a lot of sense. I've gathered that because the BTN raised the CO's bet, the actions after the BTN does not affect the CO's ability to reopen due to the BTN's raise being a full/more than a full sized raise of the CO's bet. I actually wasn't in the hand (or at the table) at all and there was no confrontation, but I was curious as to the actual ruling if it were to be brought up, so when I had a minute, I asked the floor and he confirmed that the CO's shove was legal.

And as a side note, my buddy was the BTN with QQ, and the CO had KK, so the CO being allowed to reopen the betting saved my buddy plenty of big blinds.

Thanks for the responses, glad it could be hashed out and I could learn something from it.

This is it in a nutshell.

I have seen it happen where the CO was not allowed to raise.

I think it is important to call for the Floor as soon as it becomes clear that the Dealer is not willing to consider the alternate possibility. In general the Floor will get it right.

But. If the floor also gets it wrong then the only shot is to do what was said above in a calm non-threatening way. My tactic is to stop at the point where BTN raised and ask Dealer/Floor if CO would be allowed to raise. Their answer will always be yes. And then it will dawn on them that the subsequent BB action can't remove that option.

A Player who makes a legal raise is the only Player left in the hand who can't make another legal raise .. unless .. another legal raise is made.

The last remaining Player to a 'Raisers' right has the last opportunity to make a legal raise .. or close the action with a fold or call. Everyone in between has all options .. fold, call or raise. GL


PS .. This is a huge flaw in the WSOP play chip App where any 'raise' (increase in bet size) allows all remaining Players all options. Not that it really matters in a play chip game, but you'd hope that the software knows the difference when it's real money.