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Old 01-03-2018, 12:42 PM   #26
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
How is punishing the victim as well just?
When the floor shows up and two guys are yelling it doesn't matter who started it.

You both have to shut up or you're both leaving.

If the dealer relays that one started it, it will be written down in the log that way.

When the floor shows up and one guy is yelling and the dealer confirms that the
victim was completely innocent (1%), it's unlikely that both are getting a talking to.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:43 PM   #27
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Curious why it is that you see this so often? Either you are involved more often than not or you play in a place with a lot of really angry ppl.
Exhibit A:
I never made a statement on the frequency of verbal altercations I've witnessed. What I did say is that almost every time I see one the floor does the "you both chill routine" as if both parties are at fault.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:50 PM   #28
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Prediction: OP has 0 or 1 kids and is not a teacher.

The blunt truth is that the floor doesn't give a ****. People in general are obsessed with factual guilt, but anyone who has had to take care of 2 or more kids at a time has had to listen to a boring ass, wildly inaccurate, blow by blow story about who did what when. The floor's - and anyone's, really - desire to figure out exactly what happened is inversely proportional to the projected amount of time it will take to resolve the situation.

The blunt truth is that very few people are willing to unload on people without feeling provoked. Those "nice hand"s that you throw out when someone sucks out on you? Not as sincere as you think you sound. Just because they called a 2.3:1 bet with 2.7:1 odds doesn't mean they can't hear you whisper to your friend about all the chodes at the table. Most of the time, "I didn't do anything wrong" is better translated by, "I can't think of a specific thing that I did immediately prior to when I think this fight started."

The blunt truth is that the "ad hominem" attack you condemned earlier is spot on. You obviously think you're less confrontational than you are, and you seem to express surprise at a super common attitude among those who have to babysit. Even if you don't agree with the way they do things, the mere fact that you're surprised by it and show anwhole lot of anger towards it is indicative.
And you obviously are unable to discuss abstract concepts without getting personal. See, do you like this? See what I just did there? Enjoy Also, the fact that you're unable to grasp that feeling unhappy with unfairness is natural for a human shows your lack of understanding of human nature. See, I can do this personal **** too.

The whole approach of we're going to treat the perp and the victim the same because we don't give a **** to spend time to figure out what's going on stinks.
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:29 PM   #29
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

Well then how about something that is not abstract at all? Floors are going to continue doing what you don't like because it suits them and they don't care **** what you like or find unfair. And there is not much you can do about that but rant a little on 2+2 , which is OK cause it is a forum about stuff that happens at casino tables. And this happens all the time like you posted.
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:36 PM   #30
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Well then how about something that is not abstract at all? Floors are going to continue doing what you don't like because it suits them and they don't care **** what you like or find unfair. And there is not much you can do about that but rant a little on 2+2 , which is OK cause it is a forum about stuff that happens at casino tables. And this happens all the time like you posted.
Reasonable post.
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:59 PM   #31
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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And you obviously are unable to discuss abstract concepts without getting personal. See, do you like this? See what I just did there? Enjoy Also, the fact that you're unable to grasp that feeling unhappy with unfairness is natural for a human shows your lack of understanding of human nature. See, I can do this personal **** too.
I don't know whether it's just the times, but I've noticed a huge uptick in psychological projection recently.

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The whole approach of we're going to treat the perp and the victim the same because we don't give a **** to spend time to figure out what's going on stinks.
99% there are two perps and zero victims.

But for that remaining 1%, yeah, it stinks. Definitely be sure to ask your mommy why bad things happen to good people.
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:59 PM   #32
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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OK, OK, you seem reasonable. Yes, asking the dealer makes a whole lot of sense and is of course the best person to ask and I was exaggerating the quality of their "info" (but not by much!

Now, let me tell you that I've seen situations where player A says: “Nice river you ****ing idiot. Only a retard would play a hand like that”, player B says NOTHING back, calls the floor and complains and... the floor does the "you guys better chillout" bull**** routine like they're both at fault. I've seen similar one-sided scenarios and the subsequent floor "handling" of the issue in this manner many times. One party is clearly in violation of the room rules. There are usually rules against verbal abuse, cussing, berating play, etc and the other is clearly the victim. Yet, the floor treats the perp and the victim as equally at fault. How is this fair or moral?

Telling everybody to chillout hardly seems like the victim is being "punished".

If I come to the table and one player is clearly out of line and likely to continue to be out of line I deal with that player.

If I come to the table and it feels like the whole table may have been a bit out of control and this is just the big flair .... I warn the whole table.

If I get to the table and it seems like a general table warning is going to get the situation resolved then whats what I do. I'm punishing you if I tell you to "chillout" (that isn;t a word I use though) I am saying hey look tempers flared I think you guys can move on and its not going to repeat itself there is no reason to do more.... In fact doing more can make things worse. If I pull that guy off the table and speak to him he starts to defend himself ... he starts finging reasons why he feels the other guy brought it on and gets him riled up ...

My goal is not to throw someone out ..... my goal is to get everyone in line.... I will use whatever tactic seems best for the situation .... sometimes players leave me no choice...
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:33 PM   #33
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

So your complaint is that some person who is chill is being told to chill. If the person is chill when someone at the table is calling him a mfer, he probably doesn't care when the floor comes over and tells him and everyone else to cool it.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:26 PM   #34
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

"I don't care who started it. It's time for you both to stop it".

Standard parenting.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:02 PM   #35
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

Maybe the floor wants the person who wanted him to call him over to chill out and not be an uptight little ***** who can't handle a situation which the dealer hasn't seen as bad enough to warrant calling the floor over.

Maybe the floor's job should be to maximize prevention of escalation that slows down the game, if no one has done anything worthy of being kicked out. That means that the talk should end and the next person who restarts hostilities is going to be punished, regardless of who started it. It's like issuing a warning to both benches after a hit batsman.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:56 PM   #36
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Originally Posted by aaronk56 View Post
So your complaint is that some person who is chill is being told to chill. If the person is chill when someone at the table is calling him a mfer, he probably doesn't care when the floor comes over and tells him and everyone else to cool it.
Wrong. My main issue with this is not what happens (although telling the victim to chill is certainly not what I want to see happen) but what does not happen. What I would like to happen is:

Floor comes over. Determines who is at fault - just like they do incase of a gaming dispute. Informs the perp of what room rule he's violating, i.e. berating other people's play, swearing, etc. Tells the perp to stop it and makes a threat of kicking him out if he doesn't stop the abusive behavior. In the ****ing log there is now a strike marked against that player (not against two players which is the case in "you both chill" routine) so that in the future in case of recurrent problems with the same player he will be seen as the trouble maker and it will be easier to take action against him. This publicly calling out the perp will also serve as a deterrent against bad behavior. Other players will get the message that this is not OK at THIS house.

Otherwise, it becomes a slippery slope and you have a Commerce-like anything-goes environment.

I believe it's best for the room and the players to act decisively against verbal abuse violations.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:03 PM   #37
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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"I don't care who started it. It's time for you both to stop it".

Standard parenting.
Let's run with this. Let's say you have two boys, an 8 y.o. and a 5 y.o. and 8yo keeps ****ing with the younger brother. Every time you do this "standard" routine. Don't you think the 5yo will grow up with serious issues if you don't handle the actual bullying issue? Is this really good parenting?
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:43 PM   #38
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Let's run with this. Let's say you have two boys, an 8 y.o. and a 5 y.o. and 8yo keeps ****ing with the younger brother. Every time you do this "standard" routine. Don't you think the 5yo will grow up with serious issues if you don't handle the actual bullying issue? Is this really good parenting?
No, I think it is standard (lazy) parenting. I think most parents are bad and wish there were a way to not allow them to have children. I grew up with a dining who was a trouble maker and felt I took unfair blame at times.

That said, we don't live in an ideal world for parenting or flooring. I would like to see things done more the way you say as well, but it's not always possible. It would take longer to assign blame, which is bad for winning players as well as the house, and sometimes blame would be assigned incorrectly, leading to the wrong player being punished.

I'm not sure things would be much better in the long run if most floors changed the way they handle such situations, and it's never going to happen anyway because fairness is not their priority (just like parents). You're better off not stressing out about this and focusing on things you can control.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:59 PM   #39
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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In the ****ing log there is now a strike marked against that player (not against two players which is the case in "you both chill" routine) so that in the future in case of recurrent problems with the same player he will be seen as the trouble maker and it will be easier to take action against him.
Do poker rooms normally keep a log documenting every time the floor gets called over?
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:03 PM   #40
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Let's run with this. Let's say you have two boys, an 8 y.o. and a 5 y.o. and 8yo keeps ****ing with the younger brother. Every time you do this "standard" routine. Don't you think the 5yo will grow up with serious issues if you don't handle the actual bullying issue? Is this really good parenting?
Maybe you need to give the 5 year old a chance to stand up for himself so he doesn't grow up to be a weak and timid doormat.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:35 PM   #41
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

You seem to be taking the “Let’s all calm down” approach as some sort of binding legal ruling, with records and demerits issued.

You don’t think the floor takes notice of which players are repeatedly involved in disputes and arguments? That unless the floor holds up the game to recap the argument and assign full blame to somebody they immediately forget about it?

Last edited by illdonk; 01-03-2018 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:31 AM   #42
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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No, I think it is standard (lazy) parenting.
Spoken like a true non-parent.

The truth is that it just. Does. Not. Matter.

I don't care if you gave your brother bunny ears so he turned around and licked you so you pinched him so you punched his arm so he grabbed your fingers and twisted harder than he meant to.

Just stop.

The total amount of grief exchanged grossly outweighs the absolute value of the first aggression. It's not at all unfair to broadly punish both sides 1:1.

And lol at the 5 year old being the "bullied" one. On a global scale, instigation runs about 1:1 in my family.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:07 AM   #43
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

I've only logged 500 hours but I've never ever seen the floor tell two players to chill out without both of them having done something. Sure one of them is likely more at fault in some way or another but one of them got annoyed at the other guy crossing a perceived line, so now they are both a problem.

Also I'd prefer floors do not conduct a forensic investigation as to why these guys are not behaving and which one is worse. Shut them up and get the game moving please.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:11 AM   #44
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
Let's run with this. Let's say you have two boys, an 8 y.o. and a 5 y.o. and 8yo keeps ****ing with the younger brother. Every time you do this "standard" routine. Don't you think the 5yo will grow up with serious issues if you don't handle the actual bullying issue? Is this really good parenting?
Hopefully people care about their children and their feelings and their development into adults though.

I personally 100% don't care at all about why grown men (and women) pitch pathetic baby-like tantrums in the casino and I don't expect the floor to care either. I expect them to do their job, which is to stop people disrupting the game.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:21 AM   #45
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Agreed. Let's take a bar or a club. Let's say some drunk dbag tries to start ****. Usually... he will get thrown out. The bouncers/mgmt will not tell both parties to chill and act like they're both at fault. This is not rocket science and no Supreme Court level litigation is needed to determine fault.
Bad example. Bouncers don’t have time to listen to both sides and it’s too loud for that anyway. Therefore they are usually advised to just throw out both parties unless we’re talking about a good customer/VIP or a female complaining about getting harassed. But kicking out everybody involved, no matter if they started it or not, is super standard in the nightclub industry.
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:53 AM   #46
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Bad example. Bouncers don’t have time to listen to both sides and it’s too loud for that anyway. Therefore they are usually advised to just throw out both parties unless we’re talking about a good customer/VIP or a female complaining about getting harassed. But kicking out everybody involved, no matter if they started it or not, is super standard in the nightclub industry.
Also bouncers don't usually kick out people over the sort of verbal crap that that gets a general table warning at a poker game.

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Old 01-04-2018, 12:06 PM   #47
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

Talk about 'game play' ... I once had a buddy pay another buddy to pick a fight with a guy at the bar to get him kicked out so he could have a certain 'target' all to himself the rest of the night. He closed the deal. GL
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:07 PM   #48
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

I guess I just don’t recognize the world the OP is describing, where more than a tiny percentage of disputes can quickly and accurately be determined by the floor (or bouncer) to be indisputably the fault of one of the parties, and this is important because unless that is done the house has no way of knowing who is repeatedly involved in problems.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:12 PM   #49
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

This reminds me of a regular player in my room who has the thinnest skin I've ever come across. Any minor comment turns into a dramatic issue for this guy, and even innocent comments are misconstrued and become escalated. So, technically (from a certain standpoint), this guy never instigates it and yet he always seems to find himself in the middle of a disagreement. The old adage that "it takes two to tango" is so very true.

I've played thousands of hours and I've never once been a part of the floor being called over because of my behavior. If a player says something obnoxious to me I'm adult enough to realized that it's almost certain that he's either a) trying to get under my skin to make me play badly or b) is having a rotten day and is looking for someone to take out his aggression on. Either way, all he's getting from me is at most a nod and an insincere smile and at least, completely ignored.

Yes, I recognize that there's always going to be an instance where a single person is able to escalate things completely on his own and that his victim is going to be dragged into it whether he likes it or not, but in my thousands of hours of playing and my tens of thousands of hours dealing, I haven't seen that happen yet.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:33 PM   #50
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Re: Question for Floors: Why do you guys always make it seem like both parties are at fault?

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Do poker rooms normally keep a log documenting every time the floor gets called over?
Maybe that's what all those floor guys are doing, walking around tapping on their phones. They're logging everything.
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