If our room went to that, the players would simply start tossing out huge overbets of chips (like 500 when the pot sized bet is say 215) knowing that the dealer will have to correct it to a pot size bet. Hell, some do that now anyways, even though they can ask.

Well, yeah, but the question is what if they want to know their max option but not necessary exercise that max option?

Betting less than pot is a standard and common action in PLO.
Asking the pot size doesn't slow the game appreciably (as long as the dealer knows the answer, which he should).Mostly it actually saves time for the dealer to respond rather than forcing the player to try to recreate the action and calculate.
Yes, the players should learn to keep track, but the standard rule forever in pot-limit games has been that players are entitled to this info.
This is what happens when people who know little about poker run poker rooms.

that's fine
the dealer has to know the size of the pot bc it's the maximum allowable bet not to let players who aren't keeping track of the pot size figure out what their optimal bet is.

was waiting for borg to post. He'd rather the game slow down every other hand waiting for the dealer to cut $365 out of $500 in chips the player just slid out. Can't let those dumb idiots know the pot size!!!

roll eyes gif

If someone isn't experienced or intelligent enough to keep track of the pot size... well that's exactly the type of player I want at my table. Between dealing and playing I've got thousands of hours logged sitting at live PLO and I can't think of a single player who needs help knowing the pot size who's ever crushed the game on a consistent basis.

i play faster than 99.9% of poker players so no i don't like slowing the game down at all
people bet like that the vast majority of the time anyway when they want to pot it.I wish this is what was slowing games down.

crush no, beat yes.
it's actually funny the other poster mentioned wasting time.
a lot of players who ask what's in the pot are in fact tablet nits who don't know it's on them half the time, slow the game down with their bs then want to sit there calculating optimal bet sizes. do they crush the game? no. do they win- often yes.

of course there are clueless players who have no idea what the pot is,ask the dealer and then just mash pot anyway. giving them the info is fine, but it would be the same exact result if you just made them say pot first.

Aren't you a reforming rules nit?

Oh yeah, absolutely. But that's when I thought the rule in question had a purpose, not just following rules to follow them. The "reforming" part comes because with experience you learn to prioritize which battles to fight. The issue of reporting pot size in PL games isn't a battle worth fighting per se, but it's part of a bigger pattern that tilts me (room managers making up nonstandard rules in games where they have relatively little experience) so I have to decide whether it's worth any of my time to protest that bigger pattern.

Here's an example of what I mean about PNW culture: Seattle has a number of bus lanes which are only in effect rush hour, Mon to Fri. But it's quite common to see traffic jams on the weekends where people diligently avoid driving in those lanes. The painted words "BUS LANE" loom more imporant in their minds than the clear statement on the sign that the bus lane is only in effect Mon to Fri 3 to 7 pm. Weirdly this behavior is neither pragmatic nor observant of the letter of the law.

Maybe it's a stretch but I see a connection between "I shouldn't use the bus lane regardless of what the sign says because it's a BUS LANE" and "You shouldn't question house rules because the house has the right to make up house rules." Obviously it's the house's right to make up its own rules (within whatever boundaries the gaming authorities set) but I also have a right to my opinion that the house rules are ignorant and poorly thought out. However, expressing this opinion that at the table is -EV in Seattle because everyone has this visceral compulsion to rush to defend authority.

I've been in games with rules nits in LV, but the dynamic is entirely different--in the few divergences on house rules (things like kill rules), they know what all the rules are around town and can brief you on which one's used where. They might agree with you, "I think it's dumb the Bellagio has the kill act in turn when everyone else has the kill act last unless there's a raise," or they might say, "I actually like the Bellagio rule better," but they certainly don't think it's out of bounds to wish for standardization.

who would ask the size of pot by just saying pot?

wtf lol like the most obvious of angles ever

The same people who ask if another player checked by just saying check?

I have never heard someone say "Pot?" although I concede your line of thinking makes sense

I know people aren't lying when they say they haven't seen certain things at the table, but I always feel like these people have only played live poker like once in their lives or something to have never seen all these things.

Not too many people would do something as dumb as asking "Pot?" although I'm sure it happens.

But I'd imagine lots of people ask a question such that the dealer and their neighbors hear, "How big is the POT!?"

There's a happy ending to my story. I talked to the room manager today, and to his credit, he completely owned it. Really, owned it in a way that should be a paragon for all poker managers. He admitted his own previous lack of familiarity with PL games so he thought the rule was the same as NLHE* but also said he'd researched procedure in other places and that they'd be training dealers to answer questions about pot size now.

So bravo to the Red Dragon in Mountlake Terrace!




*which apparently hadn't been communicated to dealers in the first place, which meant they were doing the non-compliant "right thing" of answering pot size by accident.

Have heard it likely hundreds of times in games ranging from 1dollar/2dollar to 200/400 from players who are playing their first session of pot limit poker to world class players. I can't think of a single time that it was clearly intended as an angle. On a number of occasions I have seen it cause an issue with a player/players believing the "pot?" individual has bet the pot, resulting in significant action before the "pot?" person could actually act.

I don’t think many people ask “pot?” to ask how much is in the pot, but some people ask “pot?” as in “did he pot it?” to ask if another player has bet/raised pot.

I had some guy try to angle me just last week (I think) in NLHE by saying 'Two pair' at showdown on a paired board.

I'm curious.... Is it your experience that players don't ask the question? Or is it that those who do are saying "excuse me dealer, could you please inform me of the size of the pot?"

Good question. I don’t think most players don’t ask at all because they either know how much is in there or they don’t want to look like they have no clue. But the ones that do usually just ask something along the lines of “how much is in the pot” or “how much can I bet?”.

As previously mentioned, I think in a lot of places where dealers aren’t supposed to answer how big the pot is, there’s gaming laws that forces them to answer how much the minimum and maximum bet is.

That said, I wouldn’t consider myself to be a very experienced PLO player and the majority of my live PLO experience is from non-English speaking places. The word “pot” is used universally though, even in France.

While my experience is that most players don't ask those that do are far more likely to ask 'pot?' then to ask 'how much is in the pot?' or 'how much is a pot sized raise?'. But all my experience is in Vegas.

PRACTICAL TIP FOR ALL OF US:

Avoid asking questions that involve words that are legal, binding declarations. Just don't.

If I want to know the size of the pot, I'd nod at the pot and ask "How much?"

My way to ask how much is the bet I'm facing: "What is the action to me?" Usually it does the trick. However, once I asked this and got a reply that it was a bet to me so I could fold, call, or raise. I asked, "How MUCH is the action?" and still got the same perplexed reply. I could fold, call, or raise. So I had to ask, "How much is his bet?" Maybe I should find a better word.

Why is this an angle? [/derail]