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Old 10-09-2017, 10:05 AM   #1
Playbig2000
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Preflop Ruling

I was in a game with a situation preflop and using the search feature I didn't find an exact situation so I would like to get some opinions/rulings on what happened.

OTTH

I'm in a deep 2/5 game, a 1K buy in with the majority of stacks 500 to 600 big blinds deep.

I'm in seat one in a 9 handed table, and the button is in seat 3.

Upon the dealer finishing the pitch, the cutoff and button are confused, looking at each other with their hands held up off the table as if they're being held up by a robber. The dealer says "That one, no that one" but the two players are frozen and don't move. Their two hands are very close to each other but not on top of each other's cards. Obviously they don't know who's cards are who's.

After the two players who looked like deer caught in headlights didn't move or budge, the dealer declared a misdeal and everyone threw their cards in. As they threw them in, I noticed UTG limped in for 5 and took it back.

Was this the correct ruling by the dealer, or should the dealer only have killed the two hands that got "mixed up" (although I didn't see if they actually were)?
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:13 AM   #2
Mr Rick
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I have never seen two hands killed pre-flop because the players are unsure which cards belong to who.

Mostly the Dealer will let them know which cards are which. Even I suspect when the Dealer isn't sure. Because it doesn't matter!!! Unless the Dealer is cheating. So a really good Dealer might just call a misdeal. To make sure everyone knows he is on the up and up.

As to the action, in general it takes two players acting before the action can't be reversed (and pre-flop it would take three folds). Having said that, there are rooms where no amount of action pre-flop would alter a mis-deal because they believe that every player is entitled to a hand. Foxwoods is one of those rooms.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:50 AM   #3
dinesh
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Re: Preflop Ruling

As mr rick said, a misdeal can be called if 2 (or sometimes 3) or fewer people have acted.

Also as mr rick said, I would almost never expect to see it happen, because who cares as long as neither player looked at the cards. But if no one knew which was which, and you want to strictly follow the rules, a misdeal is fine.
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Old 10-09-2017, 11:12 AM   #4
Aurora Tom
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Re: Preflop Ruling

Sounds fine to me without significant action. If there is significant action and the dealer isn't 100% sure which cards went to which players, then I think they both have to be killed.
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:31 PM   #5
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Re: Preflop Ruling

If the Dealer knew what was what he should've been able to reach over and separate the cards for the players or at least do a better job of pointing out which was which.

If the Dealer feels that there could be a major emotional breakdown by anyone at the table in a spot like that then a misdeal is fine but not absolute IMO.

As with any other 'stat' ... It seems as though hands like this end up being whoppers and then everyone forgets the word 'random'. Same can be said for exposed cards of course .. which happens more often than a case like this. GL
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:37 PM   #6
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Re: Preflop Ruling

If the dealer isn't sure which card goes to whom, then it should be a misdeal. I get that it doesn't matter but many players feel differently and the dealer may have just wanted to end the situation quickly rather than get into a who's who argument. Was is the first round of cards or the second that cause the confusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
As to the action, in general it takes two players acting before the action can't be reversed (and pre-flop it would take three folds). Having said that, there are rooms where no amount of action pre-flop would alter a mis-deal because they believe that every player is entitled to a hand. Foxwoods is one of those rooms.
So if UTG raises, gets three callers, and then there's a 3-bet from the button and a 4-bet all-in from the small blind, I can suddenly discover that I'm missing a card in the big blind and it's a misdeal?

Sounds fair.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:43 PM   #7
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I did not know that about Foxwoods, and I am having trouble believing it. That's awful.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:58 PM   #8
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Re: Preflop Ruling

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
Was is the first round of cards or the second that cause the confusion?

So if UTG raises, gets three callers, and then there's a 3-bet from the button and a 4-bet all-in from the small blind, I can suddenly discover that I'm missing a card in the big blind and it's a misdeal?
OP stated that there were 4 cards to 'choose' from between the players.

(Oops .. missed the comment about Foxwoods .. Also am gald since I thought Koko was a much better poster ... )


No .. Your hand is dead and play continues .. And it's very unlikely you will get your BB refunded. Both cash and tournament rule sets have language in them to determine when 'significant action' has taken place and that is the point of no return (misdeal) for each room and the hand must continue to completion.

Most rule sets deem that if a player should've stopped the action to correct an issue but fails to do so before 3 other players have acted then they are SOL. There are cases where a floor may offer limited action to a player, but there should never be a misdeal declared once enough action has taken place to satisfy the required 'significant'.

(Apparently Foxwoods considers the Flop as 'significant'?)

In a huge case of irony(?) ... In your example if the SB had shoved blind (or perhaps only looked at one card=Ace) and is then found to have 3 cards then their hand is also declared dead and the floor is faced with a very tough decision which probably ends up with the SB calling the B's bet and is returned all chips above that bet. UNLESS the floor determines that SB acted in such a fashion that they knew they had a fouled hand and tried to buy the pot with the shove, then they would lose it all ... as long as someone called (but who wouldn't at that point).

There have been multiple threads on this here .. not sure how to best search for them. GL
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:23 PM   #9
Koko the munkey
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Re: Preflop Ruling

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
No .. Your hand is dead and play continues .. And it's very unlikely you will get your BB refunded. Both cash and tournament rule sets have language in them to determine when 'significant action' has taken place and that is the point of no return (misdeal) for each room and the hand must continue to completion.

Most rule sets deem that if a player should've stopped the action to correct an issue but fails to do so before 3 other players have acted then they are SOL. There are cases where a floor may offer limited action to a player, but there should never be a misdeal declared once enough action has taken place to satisfy the required 'significant'.
I understand that that's what should happen in any well-run room. This also matches my experience everywhere that I have played. I've never run across or heard of a room that handled it the way Mr. Rick described.

Quote:
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(Oops .. missed the comment about Foxwoods .. Also am gald since I thought Koko was a much better poster ... )
I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and asked what the intended statement was here...
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:30 PM   #10
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Re: Preflop Ruling

He said he missed the Foxwoods info, so thought your post about the SB having too few cards and asking for a misdeal was actually talking about the OP and an honest request for a ruling (which he answered), then said he was surprised because he thought you were experienced enough to know that already (which you did, but you were asking about Foxwoods).
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:38 PM   #11
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Re: Preflop Ruling

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
I did not know that about Foxwoods, and I am having trouble believing it. That's awful.
I thought it was awful too at first but over the years since it is uniformly enforced by the dealers, nobody complains, and we move on quickly. I don't even think twice about it now.

I guess Foxwoods is trying to avoid the craziness when a player's hand is declared dead and that player throws a hissy fit (especially when in a blind). Floor would have to come over and rule, etc.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:58 AM   #12
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Re: Preflop Ruling

As the two players and dealer were trying to figure out who's cards are who's, I looked at my hand and saw AA.

I immediately told the two players "They're right!!" but they never took possession of their cards but instead stared at the dealer with their hands held up over their cards like if they touch them they might get burned or something.

So, needless to say, after I showed my aces in frustration, a couple other players also had premium hands including a habitual squeezer in the blinds who knows I 3bet light so there would have been some fireworks preflop. I thought there was a chance the dealer could have killed both players hands since they weren't paying attention, but according to the replies I guess calling the misdeal was fine.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:21 AM   #13
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Re: Preflop Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
Having said that, there are rooms where no amount of action pre-flop would alter a mis-deal because they believe that every player is entitled to a hand. Foxwoods is one of those rooms.
So if you're dealt only one card at Foxwoods, you just shove all-in and when somebody calls, the hand is a misdeal?
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:18 PM   #14
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I was expecting a much more entertaining story with the set-up description of how deep the game was.
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:15 PM   #15
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Re: Preflop Ruling

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
So if you're dealt only one card at Foxwoods, you just shove all-in and when somebody calls, the hand is a misdeal?
I guess extreme angleshooters have a huge opportunity when this happens.

However if they get caught with just one card doing this, then they could find themselves outside looking in.

If they chose to play the hand with just one card, I have no idea how FW would rule if they get called. They might just allow the continuation of the hand with one card. I don't see how you can square playing a hand and then complaining that you weren't dealt a hand without admitting you were angling... I'm guessing FW wouldn't take kindly to it.

I haven't seen anybody try to take advantage of this at FW.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:28 AM   #16
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Re: Preflop Ruling

The one thing I don't like about the "significant action" rule is that players often act before the dealer has completed the deal. I've seen situations where someone's hand is killed because the dealer screws up it is noticed immediately, but a few players had already acted before the dealer screwed up. Action that occurs before the deal is complete shouldn't count toward "significant action".
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:59 AM   #17
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I believe actions taken before the dealis complete do not count, according to most rule sets. In practice it may be difficult to figure out which occurred early though.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:56 AM   #18
dinesh
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Re: Preflop Ruling

The ruleset likely doesn't discriminate, but the room policies and procedures should. No action that occurs before the deal has ended "should" count. Though as rob says figuring out when everything happened may be very subjective. It is all about context at that point.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:07 PM   #19
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I had a hand killed once when a player in the 6 seat folded by flinging his cards across the table and they landed on my first card just as the dealer gave me my second card (I was in the 1 seat and OTB). I didn't complain about the ruling.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:41 PM   #20
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Re: Preflop Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
I had a hand killed once when a player in the 6 seat folded by flinging his cards across the table and they landed on my first card just as the dealer gave me my second card (I was in the 1 seat and OTB). I didn't complain about the ruling.
I guess you really can't rule that a misdeal, as you are rewarding the 6 seat, and the hand has to be dead. I would certainly have some words with the 6 seat though. I guess you could get creative and shuffle the 3 fouled cards back into the deck and give you a new card.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:56 PM   #21
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Re: Preflop Ruling

I doubt this would happen, but you could have a misdeal but deal out anyone who had already folded. Would be an unusual warning, but a fair one. If anyone had already done anything other than fold I don't know what would be fair.
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