Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2018, 08:41 PM   #26
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I just think if they're getting offended, it's because they think they are being pointed out, not that the actual extended finger is the problem.

I don't have to choose because I'm not directing people.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:03 PM   #27
albedoa
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,736
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Multiple reasonable members of the community are offering alternatives to pointing that are not offensive. So it is the actual extended finger.

You are making the choice to believe that no alternative would be less likely to offend.
albedoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:20 PM   #28
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Did anyone actually say they would be offended by a finger but not by a hand pointing at them? If so, I missed it.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:39 PM   #29
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,441
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

This is pretty silly.

You are not offended by a pointed finger in your face, that's fine. Many people are.
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:53 PM   #30
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I would not like a finger or an open hand stuck in my face. That's not what's being discussed. We're talking about someone across the room being offended by being pointed at. I think he's just as likely to be offended by thinking he is being pointed out by an open hand. But if anyone here says that he is offended by the first but not the second I'd be happy to read that and find out why he feels differently about the two.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 11:57 PM   #31
bolt2112
Pooh-Bah
 
bolt2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,757
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

bolt2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:26 AM   #32
albedoa
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,736
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That's not what's being discussed. We're talking about someone across the room being offended by being pointed at.
No, we're not.
albedoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:32 AM   #33
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
No, we're not.
Well, I certainly was. Some people were saying it is never ok to use your finger to point, even if your hand is not near anyone else.

So this means you think it is ok to stick your open hand right into someone's face while pointing something out? If you don't think that's ok, then it's not the finger that is the problem.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:34 AM   #34
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
So you think those ladies would have been fine with an open hand or a fist in their face?
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 04:05 AM   #35
bolt2112
Pooh-Bah
 
bolt2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,757
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
So you think those ladies would have been fine with an open hand or a fist in their face?
No, I think it's an amusing, and on-topic video which made me chuckle, given the context of the conversation we've been having.

And I still think that an open hand is more polite than a pointed finger when a service industry professional is dealing with customers, many of whom are strangers.
bolt2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 04:30 AM   #36
Lord_Crispen
adept
 
Lord_Crispen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: unknown
Posts: 1,055
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I personally don't care if someone flips me the bird, but I know other people may be offended by it. I also don't really care too much if people verbally assault me. Don't lay your hands on me and don't impede me and I'm okay with a lot of things. I can just ignore them.

You may say, "but it's about intent", so I'll use another example. I also know that the "OK!" gesture or a thumbs up can mean different things around the world, so I try not to use them around people I'm not familiar with.

Maybe there is a scale from 0-100 on the negativity scale of people's reactions to a finger being pointed at them. You're at a zero, and depending on the situation, some people may react very high on that negative scale. I'd imagine even the people saying "It's offensive" aren't saying it's the same as a black man being called the N word, but it's on the scale for them and even if it's in the 10-20 range, I can be a decent human being and just NOT point at people.


You can choose not to comply. That's your right. But you can't claim ignorance at this point. You've been taught.
Lord_Crispen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 05:52 AM   #37
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

There are lots of other things I could do or not do that I'm sure offend more people than pointing. My disbelief in God offends far more people I'm sure, but I don't intend to change that.

For you guys in customer service jobs who have to go out of your way to avoid doing anything to offend, I get it. But if I am ever pointing, it is because I am being a decent human being by trying to give assistance to someone looking for help; if someone else somehow takes offense, that's his problem. I really just don't care if I offend idiots.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 08:54 AM   #38
Andro
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Andro's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,830
Re: On pointing your finger at people

For the record, the number of rational reasons given for why a pointed finger is offensive is still at 0. Nobody has yet to give any explanation. But then again that's expected, because there literally is not a single rational reason why it would be offensive.
Andro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 09:08 AM   #39
Bene Gesserit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 6,367
Re: On pointing your finger at people

When somebody points their finger at me , regardless of intent or situation, it gets my attention first and quickly makes me feel a tad uncomfortable for some reason. It does not make me angry or intimidated for someone to do it. I don't know why and maybe it's just personal with me. Maybe some of us are just adverse to be singled out like that. Others are not I guess.
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 10:02 AM   #40
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,670
Re: On pointing your finger at people

parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 10:57 AM   #41
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,889
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lattimer View Post
They teach you not to point, but not to not use Ma'am?
Ma'am is fine if you're young. I've always used ma'am and it's always been fine until a week or two ago.

Me: "Excuse me ma'am, are you in line?"

Late 20s Early 30s Woman: "Are you calling me ma'am? Do I look old enough for you to ma'am me? Jesus Christ! Who even uses ma'am any more?"

Me: "I do ..."

(Mentally runs through about 10 different words to use instead)

Me: "... ma'am."
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 10:58 AM   #42
madlex
Custom User Title
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,252
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lattimer View Post
Maybe it's a regional thing. I thought Ma'am was always considered to be for "older" women, and so Sir and Miss were the only ones I used in customer service jobs.
My wife who is from the South (and in her mid twenties) answers “yes/no Ma’am” to every adult female and calls them “Miss first name” no matter their age.

As far as the finger pointing, apparently that’s a no-no in the South, but I had no idea people in other parts of the country really cared about it.
madlex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 11:47 AM   #43
bolt2112
Pooh-Bah
 
bolt2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,757
Re: On pointing your finger at people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andro View Post
For the record, the number of rational reasons given for why a pointed finger is offensive is still at 0. Nobody has yet to give any explanation. But then again that's expected, because there literally is not a single rational reason why it would be offensive.
I'll give you a rational reason for why it's offensive to point an index finger at someone when you give me a rational reason for why it's offensive to flip the bird at someone.

It's a cultural thing. Who knows where or why these things get started?
bolt2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 12:49 PM   #44
King Spew
Antici
 
King Spew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: pation
Posts: 12,026
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
..........Now I've got a dealer who sticks his fat fingers in my face every time it's on me,
So to be clear in my mind bolt you are saying that if you are in seat 7....when dealer points..... he is now "sticking his fat finger in my face" ??? (From 5 feet away......unlike in the LOLvideoscreamingbunchofhormones where the finger IS in the face imo)
King Spew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 12:59 PM   #45
bolt2112
Pooh-Bah
 
bolt2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,757
Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
So to be clear in my mind bolt you are saying that if you are in seat 7....when dealer points..... he is now "sticking his fat finger in my face" ??? (From 5 feet away......unlike in the LOLvideoscreamingbunchofhormones where the finger IS in the face imo)
So to be clear, Spew, it's not okay for a dealer to point his finger at you if you're in seat 5, but it is okay for him to point his finger at you if you're in seat 7?

And it's not okay to point a finger at someone who comes from a culture where finger pointing is considered rude, but it is okay to point a finger at someone from a culture where it's a non-issue?

Hey, I've got an idea... how about if we train all of our casino staff to just not point their fingers at all?
bolt2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:17 PM   #46
browni3141
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,293
Re: On pointing your finger at people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andro View Post
For the record, the number of rational reasons given for why a pointed finger is offensive is still at 0. Nobody has yet to give any explanation. But then again that's expected, because there literally is not a single rational reason why it would be offensive.
I don't think anybody ever claimed there was one. All of the people who get offended by this are reacting emotionally, not rationally. This is how the majority of people in society act. Some people are conditioned to think that finger pointing is offensive, so they get offended. Perhaps if we stopped teaching that it is offensive, it would start to go away?

Bolt, there is a very clear difference between finger pointing and flipping the bird. Finger pointing is conveying information, while flipping the bird is conveying ill will, sometimes with an implied threat of violence. Is that a rational?

Personally I don't do much finger pointing. If I did and somebody got offended by it that might be a good sign that I don't need to interact with such a person anymore.
browni3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:44 PM   #47
Quadstriker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Quadstriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,133
Re: On pointing your finger at people

So this is the kind of "discussion" that goes on in that thread this was spun off from.

It would be great if it was left there.
Quadstriker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 01:48 PM   #48
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,236
Re: On pointing your finger at people

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112 View Post
I'll give you a rational reason for why it's offensive to point an index finger at someone when you give me a rational reason for why it's offensive to flip the bird at someone.
Because the bird has the meaning of "F you", which is not a a nice thing to say.

Pointing has the meaning of "over there" or "that person", which are perfectly fine things to say.

Last edited by chillrob; 07-30-2018 at 02:09 PM.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 02:05 PM   #49
bolt2112
Pooh-Bah
 
bolt2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,757
Re: On pointing your finger at people

Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
I don't think anybody ever claimed there was one. All of the people who get offended by this are reacting emotionally, not rationally. This is how the majority of people in society act. Some people are conditioned to think that finger pointing is offensive, so they get offended. Perhaps if we stopped teaching that it is offensive, it would start to go away?

Bolt, there is a very clear difference between finger pointing and flipping the bird. Finger pointing is conveying information, while flipping the bird is conveying ill will, sometimes with an implied threat of violence. Is that a rational?

Personally I don't do much finger pointing. If I did and somebody got offended by it that might be a good sign that I don't need to interact with such a person anymore.

This is a really well written and well thought out post.So let's go back to the beginning of the thread and limit this to service industry workers and finger pointing.

Intention is irrelevant.

Yes, it's worse to flip the bird, or threaten someone than to point a finger. But we only care about the customer's reaction and not the dealer's intent. If the customer feels offended by my finger pointing then that's something for the casino to be concerned about.

I once playfully teased a player in an entirely G rated fashion. He decided that I was picking on him and I ended up with a write up in the manager's office. Was he am over sensitive snowflake? Probably. Was my intent unfriendly or hostile? Nit at all. But he's a customer and I'm a service worker.

If some number of customers don't appreciate pointing then why would any casino ever ask its employees to try to use their own judgment about pointing rather than to just suggest a blanket alternative such as an open hand?
bolt2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 02:09 PM   #50
Lagavulin16
enthusiast
 
Lagavulin16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 88
Re: On pointing your finger at people

We need a Pointing CONTAINMENT Thread.

When it comes to etiquette, some things started so long ago or for such an obscure reason, that it'd be hard to find out the WHY behind so many things we take for granted. There are some authorities on etiquette like Miss Manners if you're 100 years old, but for the most part these things are handed down through generations. You simply can't drill down and constantly ask "why" or just assume it's not a thing if you haven't heard about it. No one cares if you have a great reason why it's "stupid."

Pointing is considered rude in many circles and cultures, not just in the south or in high society. For example: I grew up in a bad neighborhood in the 80's and 90's and I certainly wouldn't go around pointing at people there either unless it was purposely aggressive. The drug dealer down the block thinks you're pointing at him instead of the thing near him, and you're likely in for an unpleasant next few moments.

If you don't know this piece of etiquette or disagree with it, it doesn't make it any less true. If your job is to milk people's expendable income from them, it behooves you to take the least offensive line possible with them. (until tilting them is the better path)
Lagavulin16 is online now   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online