That is a great article! The only point missing is that cardrooms tend to be places where people spread colds and the like a lot.

Let's just work under the assumption that I am keeping everything on the up and up...you know, like paying my mortgage on time and my property taxes.

Nonetheless, any advice on stakes to play with the mentioned bankroll? Again, I know there is little to no data about my win rate etc, but given the circumstances outlined in the OP, taking into account all the variables, etc..

If not, no biggie! Thanks.

Been diving into this this this morning, very good stuff so far. Only a few pages in but some great information. Really appreciate it. Going to keep reading it over the next few days/weeks (it's quite lengthy)!

I feel like you've answered your own question here. Do you have a bankroll large enough to play 2/5 safely? Sure, if you're a winning player. But you have no track record of winning consistently at 2/5, and it sounds like you haven't played much live poker at all since 2017 (sorry if I got this wrong). You've been in the lab for 18 months—great. Now play some 1/3, and see how the games have changed from when you last played regularly. See how your game has improved or not, and then take shots at 2/5 as appropriate.

Game selection is an important skill, but stakes vs. bankroll is not the only consideration. Max buy-in is also important, but how good the specific game is may be the most important factor. Look for tables where the players are drinking and laughing and making a lot of noise (not staring at their phones); look for tables with massive pots and lots of chips on the table in general. If you're in an unfamiliar card room, ask a floor person or a regular player where/who the best action is. Focus more on finding the best action, at whatever stakes that might be.

Fossilman's article is very wise, I think. I've always been impressed by his contributions to this forum and the poker community in general.

Correct. Probably played 3-4 times since 2017 live. I think you're right. Perhaps I was/am just seeking affirmation. I appreciate the practical advice! Get some time under my belt at 1/3, figure out what's changed, how are the games, maybe a little dabbling in 2/5, and go from there after 6 months or so. Agreed, Fossilman's article is VERY wise. My experiment here is to see how things go. But I am practical. If after 6-12 months I'm just not cutting it or making solid traction, I know when to pull the plug.

In terms of poker tracking apps to track my live results (since RunGood seems to have up and vanished like a fart in the wind), do you have any recommendations on those? Thanks.

AD

I've been following this thread and have become more and more dubious that going pro is the right move. Perhaps you would be well served to do a trial run. Take a two-week vacation and behave as if it's your only job. Then discuss it with your wife and see what you think.

I'm retired and play semi-pro to supplement my income and the hours sometimes get to be too much. I also only play in a small number of casinos that are within an easy drive. But then, I'm clearly a lot older thn you.

Whatever you decide, good luck and good skill.

Thanks JayKon. Appreciate the input. This is definitely a trial run. I am going to give it until at least January 2022 to give it a fair shake. My first trip is the beginning of August for 5 days up at Cherokee. I anticipate playing 2/5 there only because the other option would be 1/2 with a $200 cap. Which given the circumstances, is quite small. My first day there I might play the 1/2 just to get re-acclimated with the live poker scene.

There is no pressure for me to achieve a wildly high win rate especially in the beginning. When I am home I will be earning income as well as my wife's. So, all good on that front for now. If after X amount of time I am just not earning enough money from poker to make it worth it (or if it turns out I am a losing player), I will just return to the actual workforce.

Nonetheless, I am excited to give it a go and see how the landscape has changed the last few years. I am also excited to implement a lot of the principles and strategies that I have been studying over the last 18 months or so and see how it compares to my experiences from a few years ago.

JayKon, what poker app do you use to track your stats? Thanks.

AD

I just use a spreadsheet, at that a free one - google sheets.

Also, I would suggest that you become active in the LLSNL forum.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-low-stakes-nl

A couple of things to think about

1)it's a lot easier to play poker when you have other income.
Not only do you not have the stress of paying bills from poker, you tend to play the best hours. Your hourly will be a lot higher playing 1-2 nights a week on fridays and saturdays for example than putting in 40 hours a week.

2)people love to argue over pennies in ev on how to play hands that are super close while totally ignoring the mental aspect of poker. it's not that hard for someone reasonably intelligent who is motivated to play at least fairly decent poker. it is however difficult for people to play well all of the time. and you can lose a lot more in one hour playing bad than you can win in 10 hours playing well.

how will you handle running bad for weeks or possibly even months? can you still play well then?

good luck it sounds like you're pretty well prepared.

Great. Thank you. Definitely seeking to use an app to track stats, anyone got any suggestions?

Yes sir! I've been lurking over there for a bit now

Great insight. Agree, the mental aspect you are referencing will be absolutely critical in whether or not I succeed or not. I eat pretty well and exercise frequently in an attempt to stay in the best physical shape I can as it's so closely connected with your mind.

I'm a big believer in the idea that doing hard things makes you so much stronger. I enjoy long(ish) distance running, dabbling with various diets, and I don't drink alcohol (6 years sober) or use drugs of any sort.

The highlighted part I think is so critical and you are right, I see endless banter back and forth regarding microscopic edges...and rarely do you see in depth discussion regarding mental fortitude and the other nuances that come along with it.

Which app do you use to track your stats? Cheers!

Lots to unpack here.

First, congrats on developing a solid plan on what you want to do in your life. Doing something you enjoy makes a huge difference in the quality of your life. From happiness to health, your life is generally better when you are able to find a way to live it doing things you enjoy.

Second, that all said, the fastest way to kill the happiness you find from some endeavor is to make a job out of it. You love poker now because it is a fun hobby. When you are relying on it to pay the bills it will be different. It will be just like a regular job where you will find some days you wake up not wanting to go to "work". You will slowly realize that you are hanging around a bunch of degenerates who think personal hygiene is optional. You will get emotional when the done in seat 5 sucks out on the river for the 4th time in the past 1/2 hour. You might be spared from some of this I that it sounds like you will be playing poker part time and doing other stuff part time to supplement your income. That is smart, at least initially. It also sounds like you have backup plans and are willing to back off it doesn't go right (the pressure of a wife helps. Don't get mad at her for being realistic).

Third, keep studying and getting better. Never stop. There is a ton of good information on this website and others that you should read. That said, the biggest, most important skill to learn at poker is game selection. Good game selection will make a bigger difference to your bottom line than anything you will learn anywhere. You can be a terrible poker player who barely breaks even in a simple $1/$2 game, but if you can find a poker game with 8 millionaires who don't know hand rankings and are just happy to be gambling then you will do well. Game selection is everything. You keep asking whether you should play at $1/$3 or $2/$5. The correct answer is both. You need to learn the differences in normal play between the different levels so you can take advantage of whichever presents the best opportunity. Sometimes it will be $1/$3, sometimes it will be $2/$5. This requires an honest assessment of your abilities, your state of mind, your bankroll, your mood, and the abilities of the other players.

Good luck!!!!

Appreciate the response. Thank you. Correct, doing things in life that you enjoy on a regular basis is so critical. I just can't live with the idea of doing something everyday because I HAVE to. Sometimes in life, that arises. But for me, at this point in my life, that's not the case. I HAD to work a job I didn't love and do a side hustle an additional 20-25 hours a weeks in order to get to this point. I did not want to start this journey not being in a really great spot.

Second, I agree complete and know that feeling you are referring to. I had fleeting moments of that "this feels like a job" feeling my first go around a few years ago. Definitely sucked but I also didn't have the same money making opportunities that I have this time around...so there is significantly less pressure/fear of that. But it reminds me of all these golf pros (huge golf fan here) at your local courses that often times hate their job. They loved golf at one point, you have to in order to become good enough to be a pro golfer, but now it's just their job and if you talk to enough of them, they definitely don't love it anymore. Interesting correlation.

LMAO @ the degenerates and optional hygiene part...indeed. I remember these folks quite well and that is oh so true. People are sadly fairly disgusting (overall) in most of these card rooms. Hahahaha but hey, I just strive to not be mistaken for one. And I promise I will actually throw away my trash and not throw empty Snickers wrappers on the ground under the table like a neanderthal. Indeed, my wife and I are 100% communicative regarding the goals, hopes, expectations regarding this experiment. The last thing I want to do is put her/us in a bad spot by chasing my desperado like dream!

Noted on the game selection. This seems to be a common theme that I come across over and over and over again. My last 10 month sabbatical I did a poor job of this. I didn't play enough at night and often times I would play on Friday but leave town on Saturday morning, missing prime money making opportunities. I would definitely play too much during the day when the games were littered with OMC types. And yes, I am making a strong effort to study and stay fresh on my knowledge every week. Something that is easy to slack off on but I think seeing the game from as many angles as possible is crucial in my development. Agree with your 1/3 and 2/5 statement. Learn to game select at a high level and play whatever game is the best...doesn't really matter the stakes (as long as it's within my bankroll parameters). Will be fun to get to the point taking shots and hopefully consistently playing 5/10. But we won't put the cart before the horse here....

Thanks for your advice! Please feel free to throw down any further information/thoughts. I plan on chronicling my journey in this thread and keeping those who are interested in the loop as much as I can. Cheers!

AD

Side note...

Thanks for all of the input so far. I am looking forward to continuing to answer questions, report the outcomes of my trips, conversation, details, and more (hopefully).

I am enjoying how this thread is starting to discuss various philosophies of poker and life. Perhaps the title of the thread is subconsciously drumming up different types of advice, philosophies, opinions, lifestyles, etc.

Hope everyone is having a great week

AD

Journey starts tomorrow. I'll be back at some point in the next week or so and fill yall in on how it went. Should be interesting...first live action in about 2ish years!

Hope everyone is having a great Monday!

My first trip is complete. Got up to Cherokee last Sunday (8/1) and came back Friday (8/6). Things went well! Can't complain at all considering this was my first live action in 2ish years. Honestly, I'm thrilled with how things went. I ended up playing 2/5 solely all week minus one hour of 1/2 as I waited for a seat in the 2/5 game.

Ended up logging 53 hours worth of play (too much for this amount of time imo). Profited $3,588 for an hourly rate of $67.42. Yes, I understand that this is an insanely small sample size but it was a huge confidence booster for sure. I punted off about $1,500 while playing when exhausted but was sharp enough to realize this and walk away before I did any further damage.

The games were decent. Night games were definitely a little looser for obvious reasons but the day games weren't that tough imo...yes, the players are tighter and older but because of that, were much easier to play against. Very predictable. And openly stated numerous times they were only playing their cards...

Was fortunate enough to run into a couple huge pots with a reckless guy overvaluing the **** out of two pair...once when I had the stone nuts on the turn and another time where I had a monster combo draw (like 13-14 outs) and hit it....ended up scooping both those pots for roughly $2800 bucks.

I did find myself becoming distracted at times after playing for more than 5-6 hours. I found it hard to concentrate fully and would become focused on a baseball game or something as opposed to fully focusing on each and every hand. Which means I am going to have to find ways to keep myself occupied when I go on poker trips and I am not at 100% focus wise for optimal play....

Got back Friday and spent all weekend in Pinehurst playing golf with a buddy from out of town. Awesome times. We also played a round at Tobacco Road...so, if you're ever in NC and love golf...Tobacco Road is a must. Fantastic course and better than Pinehurst imo. Pinehurst a bit overhyped and super touristy....too many bros out there with their hats backward drinking White Claws. But that's okay. We played No. 1 and No. 5 at Pinehurst....1 was superior to 5. But Tobacco Road was superior to Pinehurst as a whole.


Now I am pondering when I will be going back to Cherokee or MGM National Harbor next. Vegas is on the menu first week in October with a few days in Houston and Phoenix in September mixed in but those are more familial obligations...


Have any of you guys ever played at Cherokee? What are your thoughts? Really blew me away at how weak the caliber of players were in the game. Definitely a few guys that were very good (played for a living) but overall, nothing too special based on what I could tell!

You should have planned your Cherokee trip for this weekend and next weekend. There is a WSOP Satellite Series going on which is basically a WSOP Circuit stop. Cash games will be even better during the series.

Cherokee is known as a juicy stop on the tournament circuit. Though I have never played there when a series wasn't going on.

I disagree. When deciding on ding something long-term, you seek out the typical, not the exceptional.

The WSOP buzz was certainly in the air as everyone was talking about it. But I honestly didn't want my first trip back to be a madhouse experience. I wanted to ease back into the party...

Also, the biggest issue with going to Cherokee during the WSOP circuit event is the cost of lodging and scarcity of lodging. Rates are astronomical during those times since there is literally nothing else in Cherokee to do.

Thanks for the info though.

JayKon, agree 100%. Appreciate the wisdom.

Realize that you will be in Vegas during the WSOP, which is also not typical. It should be a good time though.

Oh **** I had never actually looked at hotel prices for this weekend. $500 in the shitty Harrahs hotel and ~$200 elsewhere in Cherokee.

I had planned on staying a couple nights but maybe I just do the 90min commute back and forth from TN. Theres also Maggie Valley about 30min east and those rooms are $100-150, thats probably what I end up doing.

I add my name to the list of people who say "dont do it". At least not full time professionally. Find yourself a flexible job that provides living expenses then you can play as a serious hobby (or investment if you are a winner)

Its pretty hard to make enough at 2/5 to live on AND grow your bankroll to play 5/10 and higher. At some point poker will be a grind just like any other job and you have to force yourself to go play even if you dont want to. And those are the sessions where you will be tilted and play bad or you wont be a focused on the game as you should be.

Travelling is expensive. Especially travelling alone. I did it for about 18 months. It was at least $50k for a year of AirBnbs, gas, food, plus my other bills. I could have done it cheaper tho, I bought my car a couple years before this and it takes Premium, so that def added up. Should have had a 4 cylinder Camry or something like that.

Personally, I prefer my daily grind to have guaranteed income, and health insurance attached with it. But I was also lucky enough to find a job where I can take off a few weeks per year, plus some long weekends to play poker.

I think you have the most important things already covered: a wife with a job, a house, and health insurance, and no kids depending on you. Given those things in place, I don't think you can go too far wrong by giving it a shot. So go for it!

Does that mean that I think you will succeed? No. But I'd be happy for you if you did!

Personally I am a little older and a little more well established than you are, and I can't imagine playing 1/3 or 2/5 full time. It would have to be 5/10+ for me. But that's just me. Maybe you can enjoy a career as a poker player in which you earn very little money.

Also, I think you are 100% wasting your time watching poker vloggers if you are trying to learn how to be a successful full time poker player. That stuff is entertainment (for some people) and nothing more.

I guess I agree with most people saying "don't do it" but definitely with a pinch of "you have nothing to lose (except money)" thrown in with it. So if you are dreaming of doing it, burning to do it, and even your not great 10 month past attempt didn't cool you on the idea, you might just as well go for it and see how it goes.

It really is too bad you can't find some local games, but flying somewhere for a week to play cards isn't the worst thing in the world, it just adds a lot of expenses which will be very hard to overcome at the bottom stakes.