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PLO showdown ethics question PLO showdown ethics question

09-02-2018 , 04:26 AM
Let's say there's a senior citizen player at the table who is slow to act but seems competent and aware of the rules.

The board is 78 9 3 2

The senior citizen is all in with a young man on the flop

At showdown, the young man tables his JTxx (no flush) for the nut straight.

The old man only tables his J T while holding back his other 2 cards.

The dealer starts chopping the pot.

The house rule is you must show all 4 cards to win the pot.

Is it against the rules or unethical for another player to tell the old man he has to show his other 2 cards? There's a possibility he will accidentally drop and muck the other two cards, making him ineligible to win.

Does the "one player per hand" rule apply here?
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09-02-2018 , 05:01 AM
Dealer should inform the player to show all cards to be eligible to win the pot. Not a big deal if another player does the same thing; best hand should win/tie.
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09-02-2018 , 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1
Dealer should inform the player to show all cards to be eligible to win the pot. Not a big deal if another player does the same thing; best hand should win/tie.
Yup

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09-02-2018 , 09:35 AM
I think it is wrong for players or dealers to tell the player to show the cards.

It is proper to tell the player that he has to show them OR much them. I prefer that 5he dealer do it. But in this case the dealer clearly has made a mistake because he is chopping the pot.
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09-02-2018 , 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlizard888
...Is it against the rules or unethical for another player to tell the old man he has to show his other 2 cards? There's a possibility he will accidentally drop and muck the other two cards, making him ineligible to win. [This is ridiculous in so many ways.]

Does the "one player per hand" rule apply here?
No, this is not an OPTAH issue at this point.
For God's sake, the dealer (or anyone) should tell him to show all four, chop the pot, and move on. This happens several times a night at almost any PLO game, and is handled this way without a problem.
It would be more interesting if his other two cards were clubs, and he was unaware of his flush. Someone would then argue that he was being advised to table his hand (which is an OPTAH violation). However, I think that once he's tabled 2 out of 4, he's at the stage of having to show all 4 to make a claim for the pot (which is more of a rules clarification), and OPTAH doesn't apply.
I really wish that people would just play poker, instead of trying to invent ways to win by disqualifying the best hand on meaningless invented technicalities.

Last edited by MJ88; 09-02-2018 at 09:58 AM.
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09-02-2018 , 12:26 PM
Yeah, so dealer made a mistake by starting to chop the pot.

Then this happens:

One of the players tells the old man “you gotta show all 4 cards”

The old man opens the other 2 cards. He has two clubs but doesn’t seem aware he has a flush. The dealer is busy chopping the pot and didn’t take note of the other two cards.

So at this point, players have no choice but to notify the dealer it’s not a chop, right?

The young man was upset and insists it’s against the rules for players to tell the old man to show all 4. If the old man doesn’t know the rules of showdown, it’s the dealers job to inform him not the players’.
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09-02-2018 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlizard888
Yeah, so dealer made a mistake by starting to chop the pot.

Then this happens:

One of the players tells the old man “you gotta show all 4 cards”

The old man opens the other 2 cards. He has two clubs but doesn’t seem aware he has a flush. The dealer is busy chopping the pot and didn’t take note of the other two cards.

So at this point, players have no choice but to notify the dealer it’s not a chop, right?

The young man was upset and insists it’s against the rules for players to tell the old man to show all 4. If the old man doesn’t know the rules of showdown, it’s the dealers job to inform him not the players’.
It's a somewhat petty argument to make if you are saying the dealer should have done it not the players....

The result is the same regardless of who does it.

So while I prefer the dealer do it (though as above I prefer different phrasing) for the opponent to be upset because he thinks the dealer should do it not the players is complaining because he either is trying to take advantage of the dealer making a mistake or he is whining over something that wouldn't make a difference.
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09-02-2018 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlizard888
The young man was upset and insists it’s against the rules for players to tell the old man to show all 4. If the old man doesn’t know the rules of showdown, it’s the dealers job to inform him not the players’.
When they are suddenly and unexpectedly about to lose a pot, some poker players start quoting a whole load of rules that no-one ever heard of. Well, sometimes it's 'rules' and sometimes it's 'etiquette'. It's all just a long-winded way of saying 'wah wah wah it's not fair that's MY pot!'.
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09-03-2018 , 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlizard888
,,,The young man was upset and insists it’s against the rules for players to tell the old man to show all 4. If the old man doesn’t know the rules of showdown, it’s the dealers job to inform him not the players’.
And it's the players' job to correct a hand-reading mistake by the dealer if they see it being made.
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09-03-2018 , 09:23 PM
No it is not unethical, it's common courtesy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ridiculous. I will say that it's more so the dealer's responsibility, but generally speaking there is nothing wrong with another player saying it.
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09-05-2018 , 12:09 PM
I think people who complain about opponents clueless enough to miss a flush should be forbidden from ever asking where da donks at.

They were are your table, dude, and you shat all over them until they quit poker forever.
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09-05-2018 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
I think people who complain about opponents clueless enough to miss a flush should be forbidden from ever asking where da donks at.

They were are your table, dude, and you shat all over them until they quit poker forever.
Perfectly and concisely said. This is easily the biggest reason for the decline of poker.
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09-06-2018 , 07:45 AM
I kinda sorta had this happen. Villian -- older gent acting deliberatly -- flipped over his cards but one landed facedown. He'd rivered a better set so I was a little pissy when another player flipped his card over a few seconds later. The dealer was kinda waiting for villian to act. I snapped outloud 'don't do that' but frankly I was outta line, I doubt the dealer would have mucked his hand and if I was villian, I'd think it was even more unfair.

Sometimes people don't understnad you have to table face up all cards, and not rely on others for you. These people should be educated, not angled.
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09-06-2018 , 08:57 AM
You can easily lean on the Dealer here to sit and do nothing until the other two cards are tabled and/or explain the rule to the Player. The Players in this case should stay out of it until the other two cards are tabled, but it's very hard to expect that at most tables.

I think in this type of case the Dealer can chop up the pot but not push 'either' side until the other two cards are tabled. Obviously a waste of time if we see two clubs show up and a Dealer should know how to handle a reg as well in these spots. GL
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09-06-2018 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyrav
Sometimes people don't understnad you have to table face up all cards, and not rely on others for you. These people should be educated, not angled.
In your example, the player tried to turn all cards face up.

Unless there's reason to suspect foul play, the dealer or another player turning over that one card should be perfectly fine. I've played countless times with old guys who clearly had trouble with their motor skills. I don't remember a single time where another player objected when somebody helped those players table their hand after they fumbled with their cards for seconds. I mean it's already sad to watch them try to peak at their cards after the deal.

Imagine somebody with short arms trying to table their hand and one of the cards lands face down in the middle of the table out of their reach. Should we force that player to walk around the table to see if she can reach that card from a different position or tell her to climb on the table?
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09-12-2018 , 04:50 AM
It is fine for people to tell the old dude he has to show all his cards.
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