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Old 07-12-2018, 03:34 AM   #1
rigs26
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Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

happened in a 1/2 live game

a player two seats to my right, who seemed to be playing live for the very first time, acted out of turn (folds) a few times in the first orbit (this was a brand new table).

I didn't say anything at first, but when someone else brought it up, I supported him in saying the dealer should say something. the dealer replied with basically "its no big deal, its free information for everyone".

another player commented "you shouldn't blame the dealer for this, you should be telling the player to stop"

1) isnt it the dealer's responsibility here? are players suppose to be the ones enforcing rules?

2) is it really no big deal and should I have kept my mouth shut?
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:09 AM   #2
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

1) Yes, the dealer should be telling the player to wait for his turn to fold and not to give any tells that he is folding. It's disruptive to the game as well.

2) It really isn't a big deal if #1 is followed.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:30 AM   #3
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

It's the dealer's job to control the action. It's the floor's job to make sure the dealer does his job. You should call the floor if the dealer won't do his job.

It can be a big deal because when a player acts out of turn, that sometimes induces the next player to act out of turn. The effect is magnified if it is on a later street and there is significant money in the pot. The information may be free, but it is assymetrical and has more value to players in later position.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:23 PM   #4
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by rigs26 View Post
is it really no big deal and should I have kept my mouth shut?
These are two different questions with independent answers.

It can be a big deal where you should say something. It can be a big deal but you shouldn't say anything. It can be a big deal where you should say something anyway. And of course it can be a small deal where you keep your mouth shut.

A big deal where you should say something is pretty obvious, say, you watch someone steal his neighbor's chips. This is offensive to everyone, in the hand, out of the hand, people not at the table, and even the police. See something say something.

A big deal where you should stay quiet is where it's not obviously bad. Like if someone is talking strategy at the table, it's a big deal and inappropriate but it's even more inappropriate to explain in public why it's inappropriate. Say something in private, or attempt to change the conversation topic.

A small deal where you may want to speak up is where you see someone uncomfortable but either unwilling to speak up himself or something that is perceived to be a bigger problem than it actually is.

And obviously don't sweat small **** and humans only coexist in close proximity by leaving enough social buffer to not strangle each other.

---

Where does this fall? I think it's a moderate to big deal, but I personally wouldn't say anything. I'd put it in the category of "I don't want to have to explain the importance of position and why asymmetric information is bad."

If I were to speak up, I'd focus on the less offensive but more publicly explainable problem - that acting out of turn can be confusing for the dealer and I don't want some giant mess that requires us to pause the game for 5 minutes while the floor is called.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:57 PM   #5
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

I personally don’t care too much, but if I decide to speak up in support of another player who is bothered, that is the the very last point where I expect the dealer to explain the situation to the ‘offender’.

The second the dealer gives a response like that, I call for the floor and tell him his dealer either doesn’t know the rules or doesn’t give a s***. Both options are unacceptable. While that situation wasn’t a big deal before the dealers response, it certainly is one after.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:46 PM   #6
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by rigs26 View Post
1) isnt it the dealer's responsibility here? are players suppose to be the ones enforcing rules?

2) is it really no big deal and should I have kept my mouth shut?
1) 100% the dealers job.

2) In a 1/2 game preflop with no raise, it's really not a big deal, but it still should be stopped because at some point it could potentially be a bigger deal.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:05 PM   #7
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by Suit View Post

2) In a 1/2 game preflop with no raise, it's really not a big deal, but it still should be stopped because at some point it could potentially be a bigger deal.
One problem I often see is the fold domino effect where one player folds out of turn and immediately the next two or three players fold in succession, meanwhile the EP player, who is now effectively the CO, is sitting there with cards going "hey guys, wait a sec, it's on me."
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:58 PM   #8
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by rigs26 View Post
…..
1) isnt it the dealer's responsibility here? are players suppose to be the ones enforcing rules?

2) is it really no big deal and should I have kept my mouth shut?
You were right, the dealer was wrong.
What the dealer did was worse than what the guy did by folding early.
It's ok for you to (politely) explain to the other guy that it's bad etiquette to fold OOT and that he should stop doing it; or for you to ask the dealer to explain this to him. It's wrong for the dealer to fail to do this on his own; it's very wrong for the dealer to pass it off as ok.
Folding OOT doesn't usually have any real effect (though it's still rude); but when it does (usually in a big multi-way pot), it's really, really irritating.
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:59 PM   #9
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

Every few years I get into it with a Dealer because they aren't doing their job. I call over the Floor. Sometimes the Floor educates the dealer. Sometimes they don't and I decide the room can't be trusted to carry out basic rules/procedures.

Almost always the Floor does the right thing. Because it would be utter chaos to allow incompetent dealers to decide what the rules and procedures are.

The thing that bothers me the most (well hard to say) is when dealers stay silent and force players to enforce rules. This gets ugly quickly. People usually don't like to be told what to do by their peers. And yet calling over the Floor right away doesn't really work either. This is one area where the Floor don't always press the Dealers because it will likely affect the dealer's tips. And paperwork.

On to the OP: Out of turn action isn't significant until it is.

It usually hurts the player who acts out of turn because the player who was supposed to act can now call or check safely and either fold or raise the now helpless out of turn person.

But it can go the other way if significant action then occurs and the player(s) who haven't yet acted are forced to fold their hand or check when they didn't want to.

It can also force turn or river cards to come back as part of an angleshot.

And of course folding out of turn can affect action on those who are yet to act and never really affects the folder...
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Old 07-13-2018, 05:37 PM   #10
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

It's certainly a "big deal" that needs to be addressed somehow.

Most +EV for you is probably to wait until you're UTG+2 or 3 and then talk to the floor away from the table. The dealer should have dealt with this when it was pointed out, but some people need retraining. Others at the table are idiots for trying to shame you, but now it's run its course. Better to be discreet.

You could call for the floor ASAP if it's so tilting that you can't go on, but that just gives the idiots more grist for the mill. Better to let them handle it behind the scenes.

Besides, you want to keep a happy atmosphere for the new player. Getting in am argument at the table is even worse than letting them keeping folding OOT.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:37 AM   #11
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post

The thing that bothers me the most (well hard to say) is when dealers stay silent and force players to enforce rules. This gets ugly quickly. People usually don't like to be told what to do by their peers. And yet calling over the Floor right away doesn't really work either. This is one area where the Floor don't always press the Dealers because it will likely affect the dealer's tips. And paperwork.
Whether it’s players acting out of turn, string bets, players discussing a hand, players placing their drinks or cell phones on the table, or whatever, in my experience most dealers will wait for a player to speak up before taking action.

And what do you do about the player who technically waits his turn to fold but constantly telegraphs when he intends to fold by holding his cards over the line, two inches off the felt, with his wrist cocked back ready to fling his cards into the muck?
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:53 PM   #12
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by Asterix811 View Post
And what do you do about the player who technically waits his turn to fold but constantly telegraphs when he intends to fold by holding his cards over the line, two inches off the felt, with his wrist cocked back ready to fling his cards into the muck?
Cattle prod
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:04 PM   #13
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

I would be a lot more annoyed by the dealer refusing to enforce correct action than the guy folding out of turn.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:41 PM   #14
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

thanks for all the replies. Ill remember all the advice in case it happens again in the future.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:06 PM   #15
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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thanks for all the replies. Ill remember all the advice in case it happens again in the future.
In case it happens again? You think there’s a chance it wont?
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:06 AM   #16
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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In case it happens again? You think there’s a chance it wont?
I'm surprised a thread like this hasn't been posted before ...


OP .. I try to pound this into everyone who cares to discuss (and some who just need to hear it) and especially my kids ...

In spots like this where you think a person may not be preforming as well as they could ALWAYS approach the 'correction' in the form of a question.

When you are putting someone on the spot, especially in front of others, they WILL automatically get defensive when you make 'statements' or 'demands' ... but when you are asking a question most folks will go into teaching/helping mode and hopefully realize mid-answer that something did go awry and needs to be corrected.

I tell my employees (and kids) "When I ask a question, I already know the answer a lot of the time but I want to know their version of the answer without influence or them thinking I want an answer leaning one way or the other. It also allows them to correct/help me without them disputing a statement or request that I've made first. I think this approach leads to more open and honest dialog. GL

PS Now if any of you know how to get a kid to stop saying 'disgusting' every time someone eats a food she doesn't like (or hasn't even tried yet) I'm all ears ...
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:25 PM   #17
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

Playing yesterday with a few OMC regulars. Guy on my right is guilty a few times of folding in LP as the action is still on the EP guys. Not every orbit, but every time he wants/needs to get up an walk.

I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he had a sudden feeling and couldn't wait to get up. Then I ask him if he could wait to fold in turn, and get ignored. Finally, after a couple of hours, I ask the dealer why they allow it.

The conversation around the table was civil and the other OMC regs agreed that he was unlikely to take it well if confronted, and that his behavior wasn't going to change. One also said there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. We agreed that he knew the rules, and the benefit to the players on his right wasn't being used/abused and they were 3 nits in a row.

When OOT Folder returned, I told him that we were just talking about him, and asked him directly to stop folding early. He took it well, agreed and didn't do it again. The rest of the session wasn't impacted in a negative manner, as a matter of fact we probably chatted more after that than if there wasn't an issue.

Regarding the "nothing can be done" comment. I explained that once the floor established that a player knew the rule, and was intentionally breaking it, they could throw the player out. The person making the comment seemed shocked, but accepted it. How important do poker players think they are?
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:58 AM   #18
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

I mean, if the rules aren't going to be enforced, why should the guy change his behavior if it's what he wants to do?
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:20 AM   #19
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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I mean, if the rules aren't going to be enforced, why should the guy change his behavior if it's what he wants to do?
If something I did at the table violated the rules and annoyed everybody else at the table, I would probably change it even if the floor told me that they aren’t enforcing that rule.

I also return my shopping cart at Walmart instead of blocking a parking spot with it, even though there’s no penalty for doing that. I just don’t want to be ‘that guy’.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:58 AM   #20
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

It was stated the offending player was obviously new to the game.
Perhaps we would all be better off being more patient and encouraging new players to come back.
What is annoying are regs and wannabe pros being a pack of rule nits!
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Old 11-10-2018, 12:01 PM   #21
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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The information may be free, but it is assymetrical and has more value to players in later position.
That is precisely backwards .... Its value is to players in earlier position.
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Old 11-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #22
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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It was stated the offending player was obviously new to the game.
Perhaps we would all be better off being more patient and encouraging new players to come back.
What is annoying are regs and wannabe pros being a pack of rule nits!
So players should not act in turn? Yes the new player shouldn't be attacked ... but the dealer should explain the rules to him.

Ig you just say that any enforcement of rules scares away players then we have no rules.

And if you think players folding out of turn is a monor procedural infraction with no impact on the game .... you don't understand the game
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:46 PM   #23
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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It was stated the offending player was obviously new to the game.
Perhaps we would all be better off being more patient and encouraging new players to come back.
What is annoying are regs and wannabe pros being a pack of rule nits!
It is a false dichotomy to say that new players either must be allowed to break the rules, or must be driven from the game. I have educted plenty of new players to etiquette and rules in a way that had them seeking me out away from the table during breaks to ask more questions.

One of the big reasons why players don't come back is that poker is intimidating and you are afraid of making mistakes. Ask if the guy is new (in a friendly, non-aggressive way that doesn't show him up), offer some tips on etiquette, tell a few stories about the time you made an ass of yourself by not knowing what you were doing, have a light hearted discussion on some of the rules and why they exist (players are usually fascinated to hear why the 'checking back the nuts' rule exists, as it isn't terribly intuitive). Don't do this all at once, but over the course of a few hours, you will inform the guy and get him likely looking to you to answer any other questions. You just made the game run better, made a new player more likely to come back, and likely have a player who is going to subconsciously soft play you now. Win, win, and win.
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:51 PM   #24
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
So players should not act in turn? Yes the new player shouldn't be attacked ... but the dealer should explain the rules to him.

Ig you just say that any enforcement of rules scares away players then we have no rules.

And if you think players folding out of turn is a monor procedural infraction with no impact on the game .... you don't understand the game
This is what people don't really get. To have a tight run game, all rules must be followed explicitly. Yes, there are edge cases in every rule where the intent of the rule and the execution of the rule don't match. But a tight, well run game follows the letter of the rule. Allowances can be made for simple mistakes. Mistakes made in ignorance should be corrected after the hand, in a friendly manner. But you absolutely need to run the game by the rules, or the rules become meaningless.

I am a rules nit in that I will ask the dealer or floor to clarify and enforce the rules. i have softened up a touch that, unless I think it is an angle or the other player is gaining an unfair advantage, I don't say anything during the hand. But the rules of the room have to be enforced.
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:53 PM   #25
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Re: Players acting out of turn/Was I out of line?

And ut can 9ften be done politely
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