So this happened a few days ago and I wondered what you think the ruling should be, the Casino is the Victoria in London playing £1/3

Hero and Villain get to showdown in a pot and both players turn over their hands. Board is very connecting with 4 hearts on the board and we both can see the dealer is confused about who has won the pot.

Incorrectly the dealer believes hero has won the pot and mucks Villains winning hand and begins to ship pot towards Hero.

Player 5 not involved in the hand verbally indicates the dealer has made a mistake and unmucks the villains hand leading the dealer to then ship the pot correctly to the Villain.

The pot was small and I was aware the dealer had made a mistake, therefore I was ok with pot going the correct way, but I just wondered from a ruling standpoint if I had called floor what would the outcome have been ?

Could I have insisted his hand was mucked ? What would happen if it were a £1000 pot etc ?

If the cards were tabled before they hit the muck then the winning hand must be awarded the pot.

Perfect!! from the ruling standpoint of view, the cards were tabled, therefore the correct reading stand.

All tabled cards must be read correctly, you would have no claim whatsoever.

For reference, here are the standard rules on this topic:

TDA:
RRoP is less on point to this issue:

This seems pretty clear cut and final thanks for the feedback !!

I think on reflection I thought it was bad etiquette at the time for player 5 not involved in the hand to unmuck the hand but perhaps this is normal it seems

That's actually the way it's supposed to be. Other players are supposed to assist if the dealer makes an error reading hands at showdown.

It's also important in that context to understand that the hand wasn't mucked. It was tabled during showdown and there's no way to untable a hand.

Ultimately the hand was correctly tabled, all the player unmucking the cards did was save everyone time from them having to go to the cameras

The part here that probably strikes you as the most out of line (the uninvolved player physically retrieving the hand from the muck) is actually totally irrelevant. If the winning hand was irretrievably lost in the mock, the pot would still be awarded to its owner so long as it was tabled.

His hand was tabled, you saw you were beat,
tell the dealer to push the pot to him and un-muck his cards yourself.

On the contrary, it`s encouraged that the players help the table "moderation", call out proper reading, observe table ethics, time to act ETC, After all, poker is still a " game of honor" (Don't laugh please).

Many of the rules and procedures are indeed an effort to enforce the long-forgotten "honor" that is meant to be observed at a gentlemen's poker game.

If you agreed that player 5 re-tabled the correct hand, then the pot should be shipped to the winning player. If you think that the cards that player 5 retabled were not the original hand, then you can ask the floor, and he will probably check with the ye in the sky. Under no circumstances should the dealer error kill a properly tabled hand whose contents are not disputed.

Also, by definition, a mucked hand is a hand unidentifiably mixed with the muck. If the player was able to easily identify the cards, they were not mucked.

Nah, it's bad etiquette to have a pot pushed your way that you knew wasn't your pot. Some would even say it's cheating/scumbag behavior.

Player 5 did the right thing getting involved, but should have had the dealer unmuck the hand.

Even if cards were not retrievable, the player who should have won is still entitled to the pot.

To some people etiquette doesn’t matter when it comes to money, especially if it’s lots of money. Different situation but similar, I had AQ flop came out A9rag. I jam get called off and we agree to run it twice. First board comes out 9 9 so I chop any ace. Second board two rags and the guy folds. Am I supposed to say hey if you have an ace quarter it, or keep my mouth shut?
Also there was a $200 pot, four ways checked to the River I’m first to act and i bluff $50 with 10 high. Folds to the last guy who throws a $100 chip, I show down and he throws his cards in the muck and then starts complaining when the pots going in my direction. He claims he wanted to raise and mucked cuz he thought he won. Is that bad etiquette too? Or keeping the money is fine?

Neither of those is the least bit similar. We are talking about a tabled hand.

Ok, and a question for OP, by tabled do you mean he showed it real quick and mucked or straight up put both cards behind their backs over the betting line?

The cards were tabled at showdown and you knew the guy beat you. Not saying anything is scumbag behavior. Still some unethical people will agree with you but it’s not me.

I never said I agreed with it, I just said when it comes to money many people don’t have ethics.

So let me get this straight. If someone grabs 300 dollars from someone's stack, and you see something, would you say that they stole that money? Now what if you saw a pot being pushed to the wrong person definitively... why is that different?

I am in 100% agreement this was the right outcome. However I suppose my question would be where does one draw the line, if Villain himself had mucked the winning hand because he incorrectly read his hand, would this be any different ?

Lets say Player 5 says hey you didnt lose the hand turned them back over and subsequently was then pushed the pot would this be looked on differently ?

If he tables his hand, he’s supposed to win the pot. Doesn’t matter if he flips them back over at some point. If he mucks his hand = never turns the cards over he’s not supposed to win the pot.

Where it gets iffy is if somebody else turns over his cards, but that’s a totally different issue that was recently discussed in another thread.

But your example is very clear cut. Players did what they were supposed to do. Dealer had a short mental lapse that got corrected almost immediately. All good.

Yes, it's bad etiquette. This is from the TDA rules: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand

A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.

B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.

14: Live Cards at Showdown

Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

15: Showdown and Discarding Irregularities

A: If a player tables one card that would make a winning hand, the dealer should advise the player to table all cards. If the player refuses, the floor should be called.

B: If a player bets then discards thinking he or she has won (forgetting another player is still in the hand), the dealer should hold the cards and call the floor (a Rule 58 exception). If cards are mucked and not retrievable and identifiable to 100% certainty, the player is out and not entitled to a refund of called bets. If cards are mucked and the player initiated a bet or raise not yet called, the uncalled amount will be returned.

So, all players including the dealer should make every effort to make it right and award the pot accordingly.

There is a distinct difference between preventing a procedural mistake and preventing a player from making a mistake. As mentioned multiple times, every player at the table has an obligation to maintain the integrity of the game, which means correcting any procedural mistakes. So, if a dealer is about to push the pot to the wrong player, skip a player who hasn't acted, prevent a player from raising when he should be able to, you are not only allowed, but ethically required, to speak up. These are matters of rule and process, and are not game decisions.

This is distinct from influencing a players action, even if the information you are providing is trivial and obvious. For example, if you go to showdown and the board has the stone cold nuts, and one player shoves all-in, since the other players are facing action and have to make a decision on what they want to do, even though the correct action is obvious, it is unethical and against the rules to say anything that could influence action.

These are two very different situation. Player 5 was 100% right to intervene from a standpoint of ethics, rules, and etiquette (though touching the muck should be discouraged unless unavoidable)

Situation 1: Player folds. No comment needed.

Situation 2: Player folds. Didn't protect his action.

As mentioned, neither are the same.

If the player in either case tabled the cards, then they can't fold or muck and we award the pot correctly.


In this case, ff V doesn't table, and folds, they lose any claim to the pot.

If V tables, and then turns them over, they still should be awarded the pot.

The best hand tabled wins. Imagine the fun and game when player seated next to me tables a winner and I turn their hand over and muck it. Then table mine and expect them to ship the pot.

Well said.

Yep face up cards always speak for themselves AKAIK. If the dealers turned them over and mucked them by mistake and they are not recoverable then the cameras will settle it.