So, the more this discussion goes on, the more I think IWTSTH is an abomination. If we agree that a hand at showdown is live until it is mixed with the muck, and that IWTSTH can only be invoked before a hand is unidentifiable, then we effectively allow the IWTSTH request to kill a hand.

Does IWTSTH hand apply only if the dealer controls the hand? If I am in the process of discarding (hand is moving forward and I am about to release the cards to the muck) and a player (not the winning player) says "I want to see that hand", so I change my toss slightly and toss them face up instead of face down, is that hand live? Or is it only IWTSTH if the dealer is controlling the cards.

Anyway you slice it, the rule is inconsistent with other rules regarding whether a hand is alive or dead.

As an aside, I have long felt that a better rule would be that a hand is dead when the player discards it, face down, in a forward motion. I have never believed that a player should be able to undo their decision to muck. Every player at showdown has the option to table their hand or discard their hand. If they want to 100% protect against making a mistake such as misreading their hand or other players hand, they simply table their hand.

If they choose to muck instead, they do so knowing there is the risk of them mucking the winning hand. We don't allow players to undo other decisions, so why this one. They cant throw out raise chips and then say, sorry I'm just going to call instead. Another factor I never liked is that when the hand is dead is actually determined by the dealer rather than the player, which opens it up to favoritism. A dealer can "fast muck" one player, essentially taking away the ability to change his mind, while "slow mucking" another player, giving him ample opportunity to table his hand. In fact, a slow muck might clue the player that. something is wrong. And finally, as discussed, IWTSTH could eliminate the opportunity to table a hand after being discarded.

I think it is much fairer to eliminate third parties being able to decide when a hand is killed. Rather, make it as a result of a proactive action by the player whose hand it is.

While I agree with everything you say here there would be related issues.

Some players would put down their hands in front of them after looking at them and the dealer might move them into the muck pile when it wasn't their intention to muck.

Maybe the best solution would be for the dealer to ask in these cases (and in general) if the player is mucking their hand. Which would speed things up anyway. And once they said yes, their hand would be dead.

But I do like this in that we already tell players to protect their hands, especially in seats 1 and 10. And within a short period of time players would for the most part stop mucking their hands unintentionally.

For the record I was a victim of a dealer who refused to "muck" a hand that was mucked at showdown by a player in Seat 1. I had tabled my hand and the dealer had seen the hand that had been mucked and knew it was a winner. The player in Seat 1 was confused as to why the game had halted until the player in Seat 2 told him he had the winning hand. About 15 or 20 seconds had elapsed from the time the hand was "mucked". Seat 1 was new to casinos and offered to ship me the pot after I called the Floor over to give the Dealer some coaching as to what is and isn't acceptable. I refused the pot, the Floor refused to coach the dealer, the room manager refused to coach the Floor, and I never played in the Taj again.

As far as any muck/fold rule at showdown or any other time that the player has the ultimate responsibility to protect their hand. If you're in a pot and the dealer reaches for your cards it should be very obvious to any player that has a modicum of sense in their head that they need to do something to stop the dealer if they didn't intend to fold.

The only time a players cards get mucked without intention by the player is due to the negligence of the player not the negligence of the dealer. I've played 1000's of hours live over 15 years and have never seen an exception to this statement.

Also, I would like to see more casino's and card rooms implement "the line". This is the intention line. You are allowed to do anything you want with your cards or chips, within reason, as long as it's behind the line. The second you cross that line with chips in your hand it is binding, if you release your cards past the line it is considered a fold. The line rule helps considerably in making rulings.

I have a better, more simple solution: make all players turn over their hands at showdown.

yeah, I don't like the "hand automatically dead if moved forward" because there are going to be angle shooters who argue that someone looking at their cards then repositioning them "moved them forward so hand is dead" relentlessly, plus it would make someone who tries to table face up but accidentally has one or both cards momentarily go face down have a dead hand.

Also having the dealer ask at every fold/muck "are you folding?" definitely doesn't speed the game up.

I would be definitely good with "all hands tabled at showdown" as a rule. Halt all the card funerals and the stupid standoffs "one pair" "me too" "how high?" "what's your kicker?" ****.

This causes more problems than it solves.

What problems? Please explain as I've never seen a problem with it.

At Winstar, they have a hard betting line, any chips that cross the line are in play. Pump fake all you want, everyone knows it doesn't mean anything until the chips cross the line.

There are few problems. Well, there are few problems as long as players are regs, or are in a mtt and listening to the the tournament announcements (they announce the betting line rule before each tournament). Occasionally there are problems when someone comes from a forward motion room, and they feel like they are getting angled by the antics that the regs think are perfectly fine.

So, the hard betting line would be great if it were universal. Since it isn't, it can cause problems.

The hard betting line is ass and the players that come from hard betting line casinos are among the worst angle shooters. Just look at you, thinking it’s “normal” to pump fake.

Our room has gone back and forth between hard betting lines (every chip in the hand that crosses the line is bet); soft betting lines (if you bring chips forward of line, you must bet something, but can cut out chips and return rest) and the forward motion rule. Without a doubt more angle shooting occurred with the hard betting line, then soft line then forward motion in that order.

The regs always targeted tourists unfamiliar with the rules. So you would get a tourist reacting to forward motion, or a tourist thinks he can cut out chips when he cant and is bound to a larger bet or raise. The most egregious angle was when facing an all in, the reg would tank and tank. Then he would say something like "ok" and slide his stack up to but a fraction of an inch short of the line. Almost all nonregs took that as a call, and exposed their hand. If the angle shooter had the best hand, he would table it and act like he called and collect the pot. If he lost he would say his chips never crossed the line nad he never said call.

As for the comment above about a muck being defined as cards released face down in a forward motion, that is the same definition currently used for a fold, and there is no problem with people trying to claim a player folded when he is simply repositioning his cards. And dealers dont have to ask each hand if the guy Is folding.

A long, long time ago that was actually the rule. Then, as a courtesy, players started to allow a person to muck without showing. This gave rise to the IWTSTH rule, as a way to maintain the right to see a called hand if a player wanted to. Then mucking without showing became so common place that it lost the "courtesy" aspect and players thought is was their inalienable right to never show a losing hand, and started to take personal offense if someone ever asked to see a hand, leading to arguments and hard feelings. IWTSTH became more of a needling tool, with the original purpose long forgotten. So now rooms are altering rules to limit who can ask to see a hand under what conditions.

I don't think it's normal to pump fake and I've never seen someone do it. Like SpewingIsMyMove said. The line only makes a problem if a player comes from a non line environment. However the line can be easily explained with very little problems.

The forward motion rule causes problems for player coming from a line environment as well. It's a two way street. Player from a line room goes to a forward motion room and then moves their chips in front of their stack in order to cut out chips and accidently calls instead of raising is also a problem.

It is one of those things that having a standardized ruleset and table environment would solve. Both rules disadvantage a player that is new to a card room using a different rule then their local because there is a small difference in gameplay. It's no different than an IWTSTH rule or must table a hand to win a pot at showdown rule.

Every rule can cause a problem no matter what. There's a YouTube video out there of a guy that raises into a German guy that bluffed at the river and the German says "good call" in a heavy accent. The original player thought the German said call and immediately tables his hand and the German pitches his hand away expecting to not have to place any more chips. The original player player argues he said call and the German says no I said good call (which according to the video he did say good call). The German says "I have 7hi how can I call it makes no sense" Ultimately it's ruled that the German did in fact not say call. But it took them awhile to make the ruling.

Angle shoot or not? Poor use of language by the German? A rule that needs to be amended because every rule has some gray area?

If you are visiting a new casino it's your responsibility to check the local rules to make sure that you understand them. No amount of rule reading will prepare you fully for how the card room will interpret those rules.

I doubt this thread benefits from a derail on (hard) betting lines. There are plenty of threads on that topic where interested readers can find out why the majority of people here thinks that hard betting lines are a bad idea.

The difference is the proposal mentioned was that your cards are dead if you did this. No one does that now, b/c the cards are not "dead" and the person would just re-establish control of them.