Playing in a $50 tourney at Casino, Hero in MP w 20bb (JJ), Hero raises 3xbb, villain jams for 8xbb (AK), Hero calls. Flop is clean, dealer burns and there is a box card face up (8), he kills that card and puts out a new turn (A)... I stop him to get clarification from the floor prior to the river. Dealer seemed annoyed that I called floor for explanation. He did it according to their rules (I just wanted to know the procedure since ive never seen this happen.) River is a blank so villain doubles through me. Can a Deckmate really flip over a card inside the machine?! or was this dealer mistake? I wasnt mad, it is what it is but I have never heard or seen this happen! Talk about a weird experience!

procedure was correct if it was a boxed card. Boxed cards are treated like "scraps of paper", i.e. discarded and immediately replaced by the next card. TDA isn't super clear about it, but RRoP was:

TDA
RRoP:
Most modern shufflers are supposed to find boxed cards and other deck abnormalities, but the original shuffle masters just counted to 52 iirc, and either way sometimes they don't function perfectly.

We weren't there, hard to say whether it came out of the shuffler that way or if dealer caused an issue and tried to cover it up without any evidence. You're on your own there. But the change could have just as easily helped or hurt every player, so it's not like he was cheating against you directly.

Dealer mistake. It happens.

An auto shuffler can't flip a card (in my opinion).

Every now and then I see a card turned over after a hand is finished and tell the dealer. But it is rare. Usually the dealer sees it and turns it over.

The procedure was correct as it happened. A box card is considered dead and put in the muck pile and is ignored.

Ahh yeah I missed that part of the question. The shuffler isn't going to flip a card unless something really haywire happens. It gets put into the shuffler that way sometimes.

If the auto shuffler flips a card, it will completely malfunction the deal and you will get a red button plus some other funky stuff. This was for sure the dealer sticking the deck into the shuffle machine with a boxed card.

I see the shuffle machines flip 2-3 cards a year. It's unusual, but not unheard of.

I have also seen shufflers flip thinner cards like KEMs. Or if it's the old deckmates the dealer could have put it in that way.

Calling the floor for a clarification right away is perfectly fine. The ruling was correct, though. You've probably seen something similar happen before but it didn't stick in your memory because it didn't have as much impact in the hand.

The Deckmate 1 version just counts and shuffles. So it would not detect a box card (and it can't set the deck for a cooler either)!

The Deckmate 2 does verify (every time) that all 52 cards are there and can also sort and place the deck 'in order'. If a card was boxed it would error out since it can't read through the card to see what rank it holds. Of course this opens up the speculative door for hacking .. but you still need to know (and have) the Dealer cut the deck in the exact spot for a cooler to happen. (yes, I know .. different thread topic)

As far as what happened .. yes, you treat the box card as if it was never there and use the next card down. No extra Burn, no extra shuffle.

1) If a box card comes out during the Deal .. the Player gets the NEXT card, not the last card as is the case for an exposed card. Lots of Dealers are so fast that they already have two more cards pitched before their brain can process the box card, so it does end up a misdeal a lot of the time.

2A) If there are two box cards during the Deal .. it's a misdeal.
2B) If there's one during the Deal and one comes into play for the Board then call the Floor and hang on. Could get a lot of rulings here.
2C) If a box card is seen when the Dealer drops the stub after the River, nothing happens even if it's the 2nd box card.

3) No biggie to call the Floor .. especially when a bad card came out. You're not necessarily questioning the Dealer, just verifying for your own mindset certainly .. GL

My understanding on the matter is that a boxed card at any point is an automatic floor call, so you getting verification is perfectly in line. Not sure why the dealer would get annoyed, they shouldn't be in a rush dealing tournament so perhaps ignorant to the rules. As for the frequency while dealing, I would say I see one every ~5 days or so, dealing with Deckmate 1.

I don't remember that I've ever seen the floor called over for a boxed card but i've probably seen less than 10 boxed cards lifetime.
Getting verification is perfectly fine. Since a boxed card is most likely the dealer's fault they have no interest in the situation being addressed with a floor though.

It’s supposed to be a floor call but most players get annoyed if you follow procedure and call the floor so… *shrug*

In my experience, if there's one boxed card, there's going to be a second and it will have been the winning hand from when that deck was used. Usually a floor should be called over first before the card is mucked.

To me it depends where the box card is exposed, as played it is a legitimate turn card, but if it had been the burn card then I can see it being handled as nonexistent and shuffled back into the deck much like a premature turn or river card being exposed.

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Are there any card rooms that handle boxed cards like that? Would surprise me if any regulated card room in the US did that.

Yes, this. This is an automatic floor call.

Agreed, but even if dealer flowed proper procedure he should be more than willing to get the floor involved.

That is a floor call, not a dealer call.

Why its it so hard to believe? If its the turn card or river, the fact its revealed on the deck instead of the table has no bearing on it being legitimate.

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Yes it does… it means that someone can have knowledge that the card is there. Generally we should want to protect information more than we want to protect the “natural order” of the cards.

If the card was upside down in the deck, it is also much more likely that it could have been seen by someone before getting to it.

Its always possible but not likely.

Dealers are supposed to keep the deck squared up in order to prevent a "hanger" occurring.

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